Sazda Posted March 15, 2012 Posted March 15, 2012 by 2nd pass? is it absolutely impossible to do it by first pass? (even with everyone being in position at the right time AND some ranged on it) and yes - i understand the point of trying to have everyone dps at all times... but that makes no sense if that ends up making the phase longer. A better solution would probably be this: Ranged start on east like we do all the time - but SWITCH OFF IT at ... say... 20/25%... this will allow us to switch to north earlier, down it earlier, switch to west earlier, down it earlier and while we do that last thing have meelee finish off east... win win, everyone dps'ing at all times and phase going faster.
Lyntha Posted March 15, 2012 Author Posted March 15, 2012 In theory that sounds good but in reality we have too many points of failure. The best strategy is the path of least resistance. If we leave it at 20% and melee DONT finish it, we have to walk back to it, while being slowed and taking a ton of damage. Not to mention it's kind of difficult to place it at an optimum HP level where it will have enough HP for melee to stick their teeth into it but have a small enough amount of HP that they can finish it off. Either it's got too much HP and melee dont finish it or it's got too little and it's wasted dps time regardless. While I'm sure that we CAN practice it enough to get it right, the fact is that it will take PRACTICE to get the timing and coordination down. Practice in this case means wiping when we fail.
Prydain Posted March 15, 2012 Posted March 15, 2012 You don't want too many range stacking inside the bubble, And you want at least 4 cds rotating, even more if you can afford it without gimping yourself in Lightning Phase. You can put ele shamans outside as well (They can't multi dot anyways)
Berms Posted March 15, 2012 Posted March 15, 2012 I'm not sure if all of our ranged are doing this, but I start dotting the East pillar and move my way to the west while maintaining dots on all three. Ranged should be finishing off whatever's left behind by melee. If the third pillar is near death by the time the melee reach it, ranged should finish it off while melee take advantage of being able to run in a little early. (Assumption is that South is killed first. Depending on positioning.)
Lyntha Posted March 15, 2012 Author Posted March 15, 2012 I guess that we can stick eles outside, they lose almost no damage from movement.
Berms Posted March 15, 2012 Posted March 15, 2012 With CV, all of the ranged stack in the middle. We all multi-dot and cooldown through that. No cooldowns required for Lightning Phase. (Adjust strat as needed.)
Lyntha Posted March 15, 2012 Author Posted March 15, 2012 In the exact middle? How do you get there? If you take a look at my diagram, we stack a bit outside of the middle and get knocked back when the bubble spawns. Where we land is where we mostly stay. This allows us to dps 3 out of the 4 pillars with melee solely responsible for the one they start on.
Sazda Posted March 15, 2012 Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) but it doesnt... we still have to move slightly to get all 3 pillars it might be possible to hit all 3 targets from the very spot where X is... but that would require us to move back to the spot once we got knocked back Edited March 15, 2012 by Sazda
Berms Posted March 15, 2012 Posted March 15, 2012 We move out with melee when frost is beginning (before the bubble comes up). Work on that pillar. After a couple of seconds, we all (ranged + healers) move back in. Ranged dps pretty much have to be on the exact middle. Healers have leeway. I mentioned this before, but I don't think you liked that strat.
Lyntha Posted March 15, 2012 Author Posted March 15, 2012 I just don't see us staying alive while we move to the middle. That's so much damage.
Prydain Posted March 15, 2012 Posted March 15, 2012 You can start really close to the hagara (while paying attention ice waves doesnt hit you). From there you get knocked back a few yards. That's what I do and I basically don't have to move at all.
Berms Posted March 15, 2012 Posted March 15, 2012 I knew you wouldn't like that strat. You definitely won't like our new Zon'ozz strat. (Ignore adds in a later black phase and burn through it.)
Prydain Posted March 15, 2012 Posted March 15, 2012 We ignore adds as well. I think we only get 3 black phases in total. The last ball we just keep bouncing because its a lot easier than going into black phase again (even though you lose the extra dmg from the extra stacks from the debuff)
Lyntha Posted March 20, 2012 Author Posted March 20, 2012 Let's review the status of our attempts on this fight: 1.) Lightning phase seems good. We occasionally have mistakes but practice will make perfect. 2.) Normal phase seems OK but we haven't had a whole lot of tries on this phase. 3.) Frost Phase is the worst phase. Let's review our frost phase problems: 1.) Even with 7 healers, we are not putting out sufficient healing in the middle. I don't think that this is our healers messing up as our healers are routinely putting out 30k+ HPS during that phase. It seems like it's just TOO MUCH healing. I think that the issue is that we are ranged heavy and we're just sticking too many ranged in the middle. 2.) Melee are not getting the first crystal down by the second pass. Again, we are ranged heavy. To try to solve both issues, I am thinking that we will adopt updated frost phase positioning and move some of the ranged to the outside. This will allow the first crystal to die reliably while also taking some ranged dps out of the middle. We will 6 heal this (Instead of the 7-healing we're doing now) and stick our mobile healers and mobile ranged dps on the outside. I think that it might be a bit too demanding to demand that our mobile healers heal on the run, while dispelling, while healing, while dodging falling icicles, while running from ice waves. To solve this issue, we'll have 2 groups in the middle instead of one and we'll have 1 dispeller IN THE VERY MIDDLE. That dispeller should be able to reach anyone inside the water globule. The positioning will look like the following: The ranged groups will start at Triangle and Diamond and stay where they land, starting on the crystal closest to them. The ranged will throw up dots on Square and nuke down their platform. If we only have chex as the only druid, we're going to stick 3 ranged dps in Diamond and 2 in Triangle so that Triangle is still up when the melee and ranged on the outside get to it. Melee, mobile healer and movement RDPS will all start on X. A sample group makeup would be the following: Group 1 (Tanks + Extras): Mantra Kalikk Sazda Snugg Vertanni Group 2 (Melee): Rebel Ninja Chosi Zenzae Axe Group 3 (Triangle): Jlogg Heavenzy Brynneth Baneraiser Mordechai Group 4 (Square - Moves): Chex Wilistari Mordechai Darkhuntar Thundere Group 5 (Diamond): Boredman Deftonia Sefi Wilistari BashUpdated: Our recommended movement RDPS: Ele Shaman --> Hunters --> Fire mage Ele Shamans can spam Lbolt while moving and briefly stop to cast LvB in addtion to their instant casts (Shocks, etc). They lose almost NO DPS by moving. This is also a good time for SWG. Hunters can switch to fox to hit cobra while moving and all other abilities are instant cast so we don't lose a whole lot by moving. Fire Mages can spam scorch and keep up LB's while moving. Although this would kill any chance of combusting during this phase, the fire mages should be saving combust for normal phases anyways, preferably during feedback. Although scorch is not as powerful as FBall, they also get more Imp HS procs and Scorch still hits decently hard for its cast speed. Spriests have no spammable abilities while moving thanks to VT, MF and MB all being casted. Although Dots are powerful and will keep ticking while moving, it doesn't make up for the fact that 3 core rotational abilities are casted. Locks are in the same boat as spriests. Although they DO have a spammable ability they can use on the moves, it's relatively weak. Boomkins are similar to the other classes. Although lunar shower allows your moonfire spam to hit decently hard (And keeps your balance bar moving), they still lose a fair bit of damage while moving.
Sazda Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 i am not quite understanding what the advantage is to have two groups in the middle rather than one (aoe heals?). i mean: what advantage does it offer us to do that as opposed to doing it the same way we used to - except sticking a few ranged to the outside?
Lyntha Posted March 20, 2012 Author Posted March 20, 2012 i am not quite understanding what the advantage is to have two groups in the middle rather than one (aoe heals?). i mean: what advantage does it offer us to do that as opposed to doing it the same way we used to - except sticking a few ranged to the outside? Ideally, we actually want ranged/healers to be in the VERY middle. This allows them to heal/dps/dispel from the same place. Splitting in two just allows us to stick healers and dispellers in the middle and help out the melee groups with heals/dispels. Upon thinking more, I think that the best choice might just be to have EVERYONE get close and as soon as bubble is popped, one healer pops a tranq/hymn while another pops a raid-wall (AM or Tank Raidwall) and we all run to the middle. All the while, healers can pop SWG, CD's etc to get us there. ONce we get in the middle, the people in the middle will be able to dps all the pillars and heal all the people without moving. Your guys' thoughts? As usual, I'm forgotten. On my attendance spreadsheet, the FIRST person listed has to be 100% attendance. Previously, that was me. Since I'm trying to tone down how much I play WoW (When able to), I changed it to be you. So you're at the very top. Putting you there is in direct conflict with how I order people on my spreadsheet. It's suppose to go tanks --> Healers --> DPS. I know the tanks and healers off the top of my head and what their attendance is since there's so few but I didn't know all of the DPS' attendance. When I made that post, I looked at the middle of my spreadsheet and just added people in that had high attendance. Since I have you listed at the top, I missed you
Unholy Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 Damn my 100% attendance! Sounds like I need to miss some days.
Lyntha Posted March 20, 2012 Author Posted March 20, 2012 Damn my 100% attendance! Sounds like I need to miss some days. Then you'd ruin my spreadsheet! It needs Some sort of reference as to how many days constitute 100% attendance so it references your total number of attended days.
Sazda Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 i am not quite understanding what the advantage is to have two groups in the middle rather than one (aoe heals?). i mean: what advantage does it offer us to do that as opposed to doing it the same way we used to - except sticking a few ranged to the outside? Ideally, we actually want ranged/healers to be in the VERY middle. This allows them to heal/dps/dispel from the same place. Splitting in two just allows us to stick healers and dispellers in the middle and help out the melee groups with heals/dispels. Upon thinking more, I think that the best choice might just be to have EVERYONE get close and as soon as bubble is popped, one healer pops a tranq/hymn while another pops a raid-wall (AM or Tank Raidwall) and we all run to the middle. All the while, healers can pop SWG, CD's etc to get us there. ONce we get in the middle, the people in the middle will be able to dps all the pillars and heal all the people without moving. Your guys' thoughts? Alright, let's try it. I personally would probably try following: - pull 2/3 hunters (depending on the nights meelee strength) into the meelee group to kill the first target right away... i would try to avoid having to get there for a 2nd time - i talk hunter, because master's call is very powerful in terms of never being slowed by the debuff - everyone else does just like now: split dps on meelees 2nd & 3rd target (make sure to split it somewhat evenly). Kill 2nd target first, then 3rd target. Then everyone kills meelees last target together That is a 3/4 round for meelee if things work out and we get to end the phase much earlier. It also involves the ranged to only move once for a short distance - which is the minimum you would have to do with any strategy that doesnt involve 2 ranged camps (which i am very skeptical about due to making it tougher on healing). But yeah, those are just my thoughts.. i am happy to be convinced of the strat above working out great for us.
Lyntha Posted March 21, 2012 Author Posted March 21, 2012 This is more or less what we're gonna try, with stacking occuring in the middle this time.
Sazda Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 i always thought stacking in the exact middle is impossible cause the boss is there and his bubble thingy kills on contact... but i guess the thing that kills are the ice waves spawning there... stacking in the middle sounds fine to me in that case (if we are able to survive walking to that spot)... lets also try the lightning phase positions again before doing trash... there is absolutely no need to wipe on that again^^ the rest really should be cheesecake
Lyntha Posted March 21, 2012 Author Posted March 21, 2012 It's just the ice waves that kill you. The bubble knocks you back anyways so it's not really an issue. We have two ways to handle this. Everyone run to the edge to start. This will delay the healing output needed. Or everyone get knocked back like normal THEN run in. I think that this might be more problematic just because we're starting to take damage immediately. Maybe with a stamp roar, we'd be fine. We'll see. And yeah, we're gonna do lightning phase positions before pulling.
Sefi Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) Here is a quick thing I saw from last night(watched the stream while you guys raided) I think during the ice phase we should have the range switch a little before it dies and go on to the next crystal because the melee have some down time while running around this way dots and melee can finish it off while the range is pounding another Edited March 22, 2012 by Sefi
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