AOE Damage on Yor'Sahj

[Lyntha]

Ladies and Gents:

It's become clear that we do not have enough AOE DPS for Yor'Sahj.

Some of our classes (Hunters) are doing great AOE because it's easy as sin. Spam multi-shot and do 50k+. With other classes, you may need to respec/reforge etc to get max results.

Some helpful tips/videos:

Mages: Go fire. This isn't even close to being comparable.

A GUIDE to topping meters on this fight:

http://www.horsemeng...mponent&print=1

FIRE MAGE POV Video:

DK's: Either spec is compettive. If you're unholy, you need to be spreading your dots effectively and you also need to be keeping up DnD and using it wisely. Blood Boil also hits very hard when all of the adds are up.

Warrs: Either spec will work but if you're arms, you need to spec into Blood and Thunder and get up those rends before you Bladestorm! Look at Iaxeyou to see how to do it right.

Shamans: Our ele's are good but Im not seeing any Fire Nova usage. Is it not worth using? As enhance, you know what to do.

Ret: You know what to do

Spriest: You're good

Rogues: Im reading a lot of posts saying that combat is actually viable for this fight, but you have to tweak positioning to get blade flurry to cleave properly. If you're combat, don't worry about FoKing and just tunnel the boss with BF up.

Locks: Sefi did great. The other locks could use improvement. Talk to Sefi for tips/tricks.

[Sazda]

i seriously do not mean to offend anyone, but rather trying to understand whats going on and maybe to start a discussion on how to do things better:

Our mages were fire last night for this fight (afai could tell). My question is: How come that top fire mages in the world do between 90k & over 100k dps on this fight in 25h while ours do about a third of that? I cannot believe that this is simply due to gear issues. Are they using different skills or something?

[Viledead]

Sazda it's mostly about getting off an amazing combustion/impact. For instance timing dot (ignite/Living bomb/pyro one) refreshes with CD usage, then combustion/impact. For those who don't know Blast Wave, fire orb, etc are all great for triggering impact. Sometimes if people are not familiar with fire, they struggle with fire's "big moment". Also with spreading dots. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED: An addon called "CombustionHelper" - very helpful.

Demo locks too - spamming hellfire is great and all, but much more can be done. For instance, for a great AoE burst you also want to be sure to get off hand of guldan where adds are before hitting felstorm.

Also as a side note, fire is incredibly RNG. In just LFR on my fire mage I'll see swings of 5-7k dps on even ultrax, week to week.

[Lyntha]

They are not used to playing fire and what practice they do have is with single-target. The guide above shows how to do the fight properly, things like fishing for impact procs, proper combustion timing, etc.

[Sazda]

thanks for the explanation - somehow i feel (if people actually took/take the time to read up on their class) we should have pretty much no problems with those adds anymore from now on

[Lyntha]

Now that we are more comfortable with the fight, we can also have melee stick on the boss until the goo is about 1/3 the way back. Melee will get to it around the edge of the water and nuke it down. By then, ranged will have all their dots ticking too. This will improve boss dps significantly

The only exception being a yellow-black phase because they can dps the black adds while moving. That also allows the black adds to stay bunched up for AOE.

[Sazda]

judging by experience from last night - i think we can surely leave some/most meelee on the boss for the first slime... but, correct me if i am wrong, every slime after the first one always dies (or not at all) very shortly before the boss. Taking meelee off it would result in it reaching the boss

[Lyntha]

Usually we have 1/2 people dead or the ranged are slacking because they know that it will die in time. As long as we do it right, ALL ranged will switch to it immediately as they can DPS the boss while moving. All melee will switch half-way through and meet it at the edge of the pool of water and help ranged finish it off. There wont be much if any dps downtime and it will die in time.

Right now melee are wasting a TON of time running to the add. We might make exceptions for certain classes with excellent movement abilities, like warrior who an heroic leap/charge over there instantly. Most of the melee will stay on it and it'll be fine.

[Berms]

Ladies and Gents:

...

Shamans: Our ele's are good but Im not seeing any Fire Nova usage. Is it not worth using?

Ladies and Gents:

If you use Fire Nova on this fight, I will stab you. It's bad. It's so bad that it's probably just a little better than Unleash Elements. (P.S. If you're using Unleash Elements, you're doing it wrong.)

How to do some heavy lifting on HYorsahj as ele:

1) Go respec and reglyph. You are pretty much required to have a spec with BOTH Earthquake and Totemic Focus.

Earthquake - Naturally you only use this on the adds. I will get into more specific details as to how to best use this.

Totemic Focus - You want this talent for one reason only: Fire Elemental. This is your freight train. Use it. This talent will bump a 2mins stick to 2:48mins. His aoe is monstrous and so is his single target. As a bonus, should he be dead, you can use Magma Totem to continue to rape the adds.

Glyphs:

Prime: Flame Shock, Unleashed Lightning (More than enough movement to justify it.), and Fire Elemental (The fight is long enough that you will get two full length FEs out of it.).

Major - Elemental Mastery (You'll need this during add phases since you'll probably be tanking at least one.), Chain Lightning (There's more than enough adds to milk this glyph.), and Lightning Shield (Obviously)

I can't post a spec from work, but basically, if anyone's able to view my secondary spec (I should be specced for HUltraxion), move the 1 point out of Improved Shields to Earthquake and fix the glyphs. Perhaps someone else could quickly do that in wowhead and post a link before I respec later on.

Now for the how to dps:

Standar Opener: Pre-Pot+Racial+EM > LB>FS>LvB.

Watch your spell power and int procs. Once they're as high as they're going to be before losing power Torrent (since this tends to proc almost immediately), drop your first FE. (Ensure that your FE is tied to EE in a call. It's free dps. If you use a global to drop EE on its own, you lost dps.) EM will be up just in time for the first slime phase or shortly into it.

I'm sure you can handle the rest of the fight until the adds.

So you know you got Black and the adds will be spawning shortly. Drop EQ as you see the first 1-2 adds spawn. (Not when they're running it, but spawning.) Do NOT cast EQ while you have EM up. (DPS loss) Only refresh EQ if you're getting another fresh set of adds. (Ie: Double Black phase) Once EQ is down, hit EM and spam only CL. Do not cast any other spell other than CL. You can refresh FS if EM is about to fall off. Until you have 2-3 adds left, you will cast CL and only CL. Nothing else matters. If your FE is down, swap to Magma Totem. Once the adds are gone, switch back to Searing until you can get your 2nd FE out.

If you got a double black phase, use SWG and pick an add that's closely grouped with others and CL off of that until you reach the slime. Then CL off the slime all the way back or until there's not enough adds to be worth it.

If you got a Blue/Black phase, pre-cast EQ as your mana is being drained. Do NOT TS and then EQ. You'll cripple yourself. Once you've pre-cast EQ, TS once you're out of mana, and spam the shit out of CL. The other casters will be stuck with their thumbs up their ass. Time for you to do some heavy lifting.

So basically, you would've cast 1 EQ per set of adds you get. You can cast another EQ if you think the adds will last the full duration, but more likely than not, they won't. The 1 point in Improved Shields won't do more damage than those few EQs you dropped.

If you have questions, hit me up in the shoutbox or come find me on Eredar. I'm not too hard to find.

Edit: Aside from the pull, use EM only during the few seconds after the slimes have hit the boss. You might want to double check if your racials will be up. I think they were, but I didn't pay much attention to mine.

Edit2: Spec: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#hhGMGRfkzGobZbhb:crmszoM

Edited March 9, 2012 by Berms

[Rebelogic]

DPS in general needs to improve on that entire fight. I understand that the mana void was mis-handled a few times but that should not account for such low overall numbers on DPS. On every fight, there are several tricks we can always use as individuals. Perfect placement, focus macros, targeting macros, dot uptimer add-ons, popping cd's at the right times, limiting movement, etc. I mean look at Berms's strat just for ele shams, it is long as hell. Bottom line is, despite having playing this game for a while, we must treat each boss as a unique encounter and we must adjust our individual mechanics accordingly. Do we have the gear/skill/raid strat to kill H-Yor'Sahj? Of course we do. Rotation is easy, adapting our rotation to different fights to max DPS is harder.

As far as melee are concerned, our DPS has gotten to the point where we don't have to switch off the boss until the slime is almost at the water as it has been stated above. This allows all our bleeds/dots on the Yor'sahj to stay up until we come back to DPS'ing him. The range can easily cover us on the globule if they use focus/targeting macros to grab it as soon as it spawns. Of course, we will switch for black immediately because it takes the range a little while to get there.

[Sazda]

this is the damage our classes do compared to the damage from the top 200 parses on worldoflogs:

SV Hunters average 52k dps - #200 in the world is 65k - thats 80%

Ret Pally did 52k - #200 in the world is 58k - thats 90%

Combat Rogues average 45k dps - #200 in the world is 57k - thats 79% (althought big differences between both rogues)

Arms Warrior did 50k dps - #200 in the world is 63k - thats 79%

Warlocks:

Affli - 45k - #200 is at: 54k - thats 83%

Demo - 36k - #200 is at: 59k - thats 61% (i believe he was dead inbetween - not sure)

Destru - 26k - #200 is at: 47k - thats 55%

Elemental Shamans average 43k - #200 in the world is 56k - thats 77%

Shadow Priest did 38k - #200 in the world is 64k - thats 59%

Fire Mages average 29k - #200 in the world is 80k - thats 36%

last but not least:

Prot Warrior did 17k - #200 in the world is 19k - thats 89% (he also died a few times)

Blood DK did 15k - #200 in the world is 22k - thats 68%

Reading the data correctly:

Obviously - the more damage a certain other class does in the AOE phase, the less damage there is to do for everyone else. So as people keep increasing their performance, their own dps might go down because adds simply die quicker than before. No one in the raid (dps wise) has any special tasks that would decrease their dps in any substantial manner compared to other players playing the same class (except snuggle/darkhunter with their turtle pet). So I would say it is fair to expect at least a 80% mark for each dps. As you can see above, most our classes are hovering just around that mark... which in return means they all have stuff they can do better in their rotation. However, the people doing less than that should seriously look into what they can do better as their dps needs more dramatic increases.

[Lyntha]

Sazda this is great information. I REALLY appreciate you looking through logs to see what each class should be aiming for.

Due to gear/strat/add uptime differences, these targets are not exactly set in stone but they're close. My expectation is that everyone in the raid should be doing at least 80% of what #200 is. Most of our classes are good. Our locks, priest and mages need to do better. The mages are the biggest area where we need improvement.

[Sazda]

oh to make this clear:

Those numbers were taken from one of our logs only - the one where we reached enrage timer. Once we get a few more of those (whether we actually kill hi mor not - i will update this and see where the biggest increases are).

[Sazda]

here are the numbers from our 7th try last night (the second longest), which was probably the best except some absolutely stupid mistakes people made: (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-7d5r5q1e8jth7wnj/sum/damageDone/?s=9455&e=9834)

The numbers in brackets are from last week... if there is no number in a bracket, it means he either wasnt there last week or its the same number. Green marked are the classes with the best increases in dps - which were responsible for the adds going down much faster this time (still not fast enough though).

SV Hunters average 57 (52) k dps - #200 in the world is 66(65) k - thats 86 (80) %

Ret Pally averaged 52 k - #200 in the world is 58k - thats 90 % (same as last week, however rebel increased from 90 to 93%)

Combat Rogues average 45 (45) k dps - #200 in the world is 57k - thats 79% (althought big differences between both rogues) (same as last week)

Arms Warrior did 50k dps - #200 in the world is 63k - thats 79% (same as last week)

Warlocks:

Affli - 47 (45) k - #200 is at: 54k - thats 87 (83) %

Demo - 36k - #200 is at: 59k - thats 61% (i believe he was dead inbetween - not sure) (not there this time)

Destru - 39 (26) k - #200 is at: 47k - thats 83 (55) %

Elemental Shamans average 44 (43) k - #200 in the world is 56k - thats 79 (77) %

Enhancement Shaman did 34k - #200 in the world is 60k - thats 63% (new this time)

Shadow Priest did 45 (38) k - #200 in the world is 64k - thats 70 (59) %

Fire Mages average 32 (29)k - #200 in the world is 80k - thats 40 (36) %

Balance Druid did 31k - #200 in the world is 59k - thats 53% (new this week, also unenchanted items)

[Lyntha]

As I suspected.

SV Hunters: Good Job. I am sure that Vert will do more DPS as he gets more accustomed to the fight.

Ret Pallies: Great job rebel. Fdragon did great as well and his DPS difference from Rebel comes down to Rebel having better gear.

Rogues: Chosi has oranges, Ninja doesn't. Ninja can do a bit more with better Blade Flurry usage but otherwise, great job.

Arms Warrior: Nice work axe

Locks: Viledead was actually afflic so he pulled 72%. Not bad, but he's gonna try Demo if he's here again tonight. Sefi was Demo and did 80%.

Shamans: Read berm's post. You guys did a good job but improvement could be had.

Enhance: Zenzae is still having some minor issues. When he does well, he'll blow up meters. Let's see how he does tonight.

Spriest: NIce improvement unholy. Take a look at top parses to see what else you could improve upon but good job.

Fire Mages: We're slowly seeing improvement but it's not enough. Keep improving.

Balance Druid: Same as above.

Our only exceptionally weak DPS on that attempt were our fire mages, balance druid and Darkhuntar. Darkhuntar is a hunter without a pet so you can't really blame him for that. He should be doing about 40k without his pet and he's close to being there. Our mages need to keep improving. We handled void a LOT better this time so there's no excuses.

We are getting more and more fluid on this fight. Everything is becoming second nature is more repeatable. The only area that we consistently have issues with is the transition after the Red-Yellow-Black phase. Especially if we get the Blue, Green, Purple combo as that combo is VISCIOUS. We are going to save some CD's for the transition but otherwise this comes down to EXECUTION. Show up ready to play and we'll bring the 25 best players and make a serious run at a kill tonight.

[Julietaylor]

Ladies and Gents:

...

Shamans: Our ele's are good but Im not seeing any Fire Nova usage. Is it not worth using?

Ladies and Gents:

If you use Fire Nova on this fight, I will stab you. It's bad. It's so bad that it's probably just a little better than Unleash Elements. (P.S. If you're using Unleash Elements, you're doing it wrong.)

How to do some heavy lifting on HYorsahj as ele:

1) Go respec and reglyph. You are pretty much required to have a spec with BOTH Earthquake and Totemic Focus.

Earthquake - Naturally you only use this on the adds. I will get into more specific details as to how to best use this.

Totemic Focus - You want this talent for one reason only: Fire Elemental. This is your freight train. Use it. This talent will bump a 2mins stick to 2:48mins. His aoe is monstrous and so is his single target. As a bonus, should he be dead, you can use Magma Totem to continue to rape the adds.

Glyphs:

Prime: Flame Shock, Unleashed Lightning (More than enough movement to justify it.), and Fire Elemental (The fight is long enough that you will get two full length FEs out of it.).

Major - Elemental Mastery (You'll need this during add phases since you'll probably be tanking at least one.), Chain Lightning (There's more than enough adds to milk this glyph.), and Lightning Shield (Obviously)

I can't post a spec from work, but basically, if anyone's able to view my secondary spec (I should be specced for HUltraxion), move the 1 point out of Improved Shields to Earthquake and fix the glyphs. Perhaps someone else could quickly do that in wowhead and post a link before I respec later on.

Now for the how to dps:

Standar Opener: Pre-Pot+Racial+EM > LB>FS>LvB.

Watch your spell power and int procs. Once they're as high as they're going to be before losing power Torrent (since this tends to proc almost immediately), drop your first FE. (Ensure that your FE is tied to EE in a call. It's free dps. If you use a global to drop EE on its own, you lost dps.) EM will be up just in time for the first slime phase or shortly into it.

I'm sure you can handle the rest of the fight until the adds.

So you know you got Black and the adds will be spawning shortly. Drop EQ as you see the first 1-2 adds spawn. (Not when they're running it, but spawning.) Do NOT cast EQ while you have EM up. (DPS loss) Only refresh EQ if you're getting another fresh set of adds. (Ie: Double Black phase) Once EQ is down, hit EM and spam only CL. Do not cast any other spell other than CL. You can refresh FS if EM is about to fall off. Until you have 2-3 adds left, you will cast CL and only CL. Nothing else matters. If your FE is down, swap to Magma Totem. Once the adds are gone, switch back to Searing until you can get your 2nd FE out.

If you got a double black phase, use SWG and pick an add that's closely grouped with others and CL off of that until you reach the slime. Then CL off the slime all the way back or until there's not enough adds to be worth it.

If you got a Blue/Black phase, pre-cast EQ as your mana is being drained. Do NOT TS and then EQ. You'll cripple yourself. Once you've pre-cast EQ, TS once you're out of mana, and spam the shit out of CL. The other casters will be stuck with their thumbs up their ass. Time for you to do some heavy lifting.

So basically, you would've cast 1 EQ per set of adds you get. You can cast another EQ if you think the adds will last the full duration, but more likely than not, they won't. The 1 point in Improved Shields won't do more damage than those few EQs you dropped.

If you have questions, hit me up in the shoutbox or come find me on Eredar. I'm not too hard to find.

Edit: Aside from the pull, use EM only during the few seconds after the slimes have hit the boss. You might want to double check if your racials will be up. I think they were, but I didn't pay much attention to mine.

Edit2: Spec: http://www.wowhead.c...GobZbhb:crmszoM

wat berms said

[Sazda]

here is the data for our kill for comparison. New data all in orange:

SV Hunters average 57 (52) k dps - #200 in the world is 66(65) k - thats 86 (80) % - 54k = 82%

Ret Pally averaged 52 k - #200 in the world is 58k - thats 90 % (rebel: 90 to 93%) - 50k = 86%

Combat Rogues average 45 (45) k dps - #200 in the world is 57k - thats 79% - 42k = 74% (only ninja)

Arms Warrior did 50k dps - #200 in the world is 63k - thats 79% (same as last week) - not there

Warlocks:

Affli - 47 (45) k - #200 is at: 54k - thats 87 (83) % - no affli this time

Demo - 36k - #200 is at: 59k - thats 61% (i believe he was dead inbetween - not sure) - 46.5k = 79% (10k difference both locks)

Destru - 39 (26) k - #200 is at: 47k - thats 83 (55) % - no destru this time

Elemental Shamans average 44 (43) k - #200 in the world is 56k - thats 79 (77) % - 45k = 80%

Enhancement Shaman did 34k - #200 in the world is 60k - thats 63% (new this time) - no enh this time

Shadow Priest did 45 (38) k - #200 in the world is 64k - thats 70 (59) % - 43k = 67%

Fire Mages average 32 (29)k - #200 in the world is 80k - thats 40 (36) % - 36k = 45%

Balance Druid did 31k - #200 in the world is 59k - thats 53% (new this week, also unenchanted items) 31k = 53%

Unholy DK did 41k - #200 in the world is 56k - thats 73%

[Sazda]

kill last night:

numbers are pretty much the same as above... differences occur here:

Shadow Priest up to 49k from 45k (from former 38k) - nice job!

Arms Warrior down to 42k from 50k

Combat Rogue down to 41k from 45k

Shamans down to 40k from 44k

Mage up to 38k from 32k (not counting the trial)

All in all there are a few things to note here:

#1: Meelee DPS went considerably down, simply because they had to move to the globule much earlier than during our first kill. The problem is, that our ranged did not do enough damage on it. Ideally, we want to stick (at least) the rogues full time on the boss without ever having to switch. With the ranged setup from last night that is not possible. We are, however, very close to reach it. It was simply an issue of having a few weak ranged plus late switching on some occasions.

#2 Mage getting slowly better: Looking at the log from last night, during lust aoe phase Mordechai peaked at 150k dps... that is more than we had before. It is not great yet and it also only happened once during the fight, but it is a step forward. The other peaks during the kill fight were at 50kish. If we compare that to try #4, Mordechai had a peak of 117k in the first AOE phase without lust or anything going on. That means it is very possible to be done, just stuff has to be timed better i suppose (if our mages reaches those peaks for every aoe phase, they will easily end up at 70k dps while doing everything else in a similar way).

#3 everything chains together: More DPS on globule, means more dps on boss & mana void - more dps during aoe means more dps on boss & mana void - more dps on mana void means more dps from casters... etc etc etc. It stacks. Improving only one of these things will improve everything else as well.

[Lyntha]

You're starting to sound like me.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, thank you.