Warlocks, weakest class this expansion?

[Viledead]

Thought I'd throw up thoughts on Warlocks this expansion. T11 was quite good for locks - especially affliction. However, T12 and T13 has seen nerfs (mostly PvP related that impacted PvE), and stat inflation that have pushed warlock viability down. The only other spec/class that warlocks can probably identify with are boomkins in this regard, however for warlocks it's all 3 specs.

The truth is if I changed my main to my mage or shadowpriest, geared it out a tiny bit more, I would immediately contribute significantly more to the raid! Not saying I'm going to do that, but it's true. Warlocks are middle-of-the-pack buff botting, cookie creating, summoning bitches.

All of the below assumes normalized skill. Let the QQ begin.

Perhaps the most frustrating part is that Warlocks are a pure DPS class, and often aren't particularly competitive against other pure dps classes or even hybrids.

No burst when it matters. While people think we can burst as Demo, we are horrible for spine (too short). Or for hagara when debuff is up.

AoE. Fire mages are flat out better at AoE. In fact, on Yorsahj, any way you look at it demo is middle of the pack, and outside of top parses they fall even further. Shadowpriests can out-aoe any lock outside of a demo lock with all CDs blown, by pressing 1 button.

Warlocks are terrible on Hagara.

Madness: as a dot-based class, we aren't as good as spriests or mages.

Multi-dotting - spriests and fire mages do it better, with better results.

Awkwardness: Destro: soulfire. Demo: 13-14 dps buttons, pet twisting in T12/early T13 (still situationally useful). The only fluid spec is probably affliction.

Even a fight like H Morchok that has a gimmick for Destro Locks (bane of havoc)....locks still aren't top dps.

Shadowpriests have the benefits of all 3 warlock specs rolled into 1 fluid spec.

Warlocks are balanced around having an orange staff. If you don't have one, you'll never compete dps-wise, even against non-orange-using classes. Also, cunning of the cruel is required for AoE.

[Sazda]

you are funny....just looking at dragonsoul 10 and 25m encounters there are only two fights in which hunters are slightly better than locks... anything else is won by the different lock specs in that duel

[Lyntha]

Yeah, hunters and locks are pretty close. While not all specs are competitive, you guys beat or match hunters in pretty much every fight. You don't hear use complaining

[Viledead]

Not complaining actually, and I"m mostly comparing locks to mages and spriests as I highly prefer ranged casters (as evidenced by my alts).

Also where do you get your stats on how close locks and hunters are? A quick look shows hunters well ahead on say h ultrax vs any lock spec.

Also you have 1 spec that mostly does it all, locks have to switch fight to fight to stay remotely competitive. Two specs generally share same reforging (destro/aff) - but sometimes they sim quite differently. The 3rd, demo, is radically different.

[Lyntha]

Also you have 1 spec that mostly does it all, locks have to switch fight to fight to stay remotely competitive.

Eh not really. SV is the only spec that's viable whereas you have 3 viable specs. The other 2 hunter specs are OK but you're gimping yourself too much by playing them unless you need a raid buff/debuff in 10man.

[Viledead]

We don't have 3 viable specs - locks have 3 specs of which any 1 is the "most" viable spec for any 1 given fight. And for 2 fights locks are not viable at all other than buff bots (hagara, spine). At least until gear/nerfs increase.

[Sazda]

Also where do you get your stats on how close locks and hunters are?

i looked at worldoflogs for every boss 10h and 25h for sv hunters and each of the lock specs...

and i agree, i MUCH RATHER prefer having one spec that does it all over having to switch from fight to fight to get the best possible spec for that fight

[Viledead]

sazda that is top parses - not exactly a barometer of a class's standard performance (ie tricks/PI/etc etc). check out raidbots.

[Sazda]

i only care about top parses - sorry

[Lyntha]

i only care about top parses - sorry

It's all about the OP trinkets and Oranges topping meters!

[Prydain]

Top parses tell you very little about the spec. #200 is where you can get the best observation.

[Sazda]

#200 is a top parse pry

[Viledead]

What raidbot should do is take the middle - say from below top 10% down to top 50%. That would give a better true representation I'd think.

[Lyntha]

That's not true at all. Look at fire mages on Heroic Yor'sahj. The DPS potential is limited (Mostly) by skill. I imagine that 50% of mages pull less than 40k on that fight. That doesn't accurately reflect the state of fire mages on that fight.

[Viledead]

Well it's all speculation without looking at the numbers. But I bet it curves dramatically up from bottom 10% to top 10% starts around 50-60%.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Viledead

[Sazda]

also: your question was whether locks are the weakest class this expansion...

only a look at the top parses can answer that for you anyways... only there everyone has about the same high gear level... and only there you will see class differences as opposed to skill differences anywhere else (assuming that each class has at least 200 parses from players with high skill)

if you want median... just go to raidbots

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Madness_of_Deathwing/25H/all/14/60/median/#3vvvv

set it up so you use all parses over whatever timeframe you desire and click median... locks are definitely not doing all that bad

[Lyntha]

also: your question was whether locks are the weakest class this expansion...

only a look at the top parses can answer that for you anyways... only there everyone has about the same high gear level... and only there you will see class differences as opposed to skill differences anywhere else (assuming that each class has at least 200 parses from players with high skill)

Agreed. Although RNG does play a LITTLE bit of a factor at the extremely high parses, any gear or skill differences are factored out. Any strat or time differences are usually ironed out as well as typically the only people geared enough to parse in the top 10 are in very high-end guilds that use similar strats and have similar fight lengths. The top parses are about as consistent as you can get.

[Viledead]

Ok, even if I agree (which I don't) here is the summary. Of course, each fight requires different spec and itemization/reforging. And it still ignores raid utility, burst potential (key for many fights), etc. All are heroic:

Madness: Aff locks. The supposedly premier dot-based spec/class rank behind shadow priests, fire mages, and balance druids. Behind boomkins in T13!

Spine: Spine is about bursting tendons. Locks can't burst tendons. Overall dps doesn't matter. Moving on.

Warmaster: Aff sits at #5, again behind boomkins and fire mages. But of course is this fight really about spreading dots everywhere, or is that meter whoring? Hmm…. Plus aff and demo are useless on sappers, except maybe glyphed shadow flame. Destro for shadow fury has saved ATR raids many-a-time. Hey, a useful raid tool!

Ultraxion: Oh Hai Patchwerk. Lets go down the list…warrior, rogue, mage, hunter, ret pally, shadow priest, Oh hello Demonology! At least locks are ahead of boomkins.

Hagara: Sit your warlocks. Moving on.

Yor'Sahj: Demo, the premier AoE spec is behind Fire mages, hunters, shadow priests, warriors, boomkins, and ele shamans. Demo, the *former* AoE king.

Zon'ozz: Aff is ok, again sitting behind the usual fire mages, shadow priests, etc.

Morchok: The one fight where Destro should own meters due to Bane of Havoc…still sit behind rogue, fire mage, shadow priest.

We should call Cataclysm the Shadowpriest Expansion - they've been topping meters all expac.

All in all Blizz struggles with warlocks - soul swap and bane of agony created special balance problems. Plus pet issues (mostly shared with hunters) are always an issue. Then of course doomguard issues - dps is balanced around this too, and fights like hagara they are only 1/2 useful, spine even worse.

[Sazda]

you can, of course, twist everything around to make it sound like locks are useless... It also sounds like you are looking at everything from the perspective that locks should be the dominating force in everything. Imo that is just plain whining. Look at the rankings again... look at the class that is dead center dps wise for each fight in heroic 10 and 25... now compare the best warlock spec per fight (yeah i know switching sux, but hell.. it is possible) to THAT dead center number. Are you really still saying that locks are worst dps class?

Sitting in the very middle is exactly where every class wants to be... from a design perspective. And if there is a variance of, say, 5% in each direction - then Blizzard did an AMAZING job with balancing everything. Sure - each expansion, boss fight, etc you have one class being slightly dominant... be it due to legendaries, mechanics or what ever else... but either way: Blizzard recognizes those things and fixes them later on.

bottom line is: i clearly cannot make out an obvious problems with warlock in this expansion - though i can see they dont seem to be particularly strong (which is ok, just like hunters).

Edited March 15, 2012 by Sazda

[Viledead]

You keep reverting to the "forest view" - where I'm down in the trees to change which forest you are looking at. And all you seem to focus on is top 100 parses.

And it's not "QQ/whining" - these are valid observations on the state of the warlock class for this expac.

Re switching: sure switching specs is "possible" - but stats are so radically different that it's not economical. So after downing H Yor I should zone out, reforge everything and zone back in for hagara?

[Lyntha]

What is the problem that makes locks so bad on Hagara??

[Sazda]

You keep reverting to the "forest view" - where I'm down in the trees to change which forest you are looking at.

That is simply because you obviously are doing exactly that - looking at things the way you want to be able to whine about it. Then again, this is simply MY opinion based on reading your arguments and combining them with my own observations - both simply do not match up. Want an example? Here you go:

Hagara: Sit your warlocks. Moving on.

So this is a valid observation you say? Based on what? I say it is whining and whining only, and i can show you what i am basing that on so you can understand the way i look at it:

Go to raidbots.com - select "ALL PARSES", and "MEDIAN" for 25h Hagara. Look at the rankings. The best warlock spec is at 30.7k DPS. The average DPS number of all classes is somewhere at 31.4k DPS. In other words, you are at 98% of the perfect number (see my point earlier)... that is absolutely phenomenal and i do simply not understand how a comment like "Sit your warlocks. Moving on." could possibly be a valid observation here.

Now do the same thing for 10h on Hagara. Yes.. out of the bottom 4 specs, 3 are all 3 warlock specs. That looks bad. But.. does it really? Lets look at the numbers: The top warlock spec here does (still on median over all parses) over 24.9k DPS. The middle of all classes/specs is somewhere at 26k. That means you are at 96% of where you want to be. Again, thats phenomenal balance.

You starting to get the idea of why i keep reverting to you only looking at things the way you want to be able to whine about lock dps?

Moving on to your next point:

And all you seem to focus on is top 100 parses.

You clearly did not read my last post. I am not even talking about top 100 parses anymore. I am talking about all recorded parses and their median values. Is that wrong now too? What exactly would you look at in terms of actual data instead?

So after downing H Yor I should zone out, reforge everything and zone back in for hagara?

Hell no... unless we were a top progression guild that is going for world first kills which we clearly are not.... surprise. But what exactly is the problem here? Is it horrible to do a few k dps less than what you could do with another spec that you, understandably, do not want to respec into after each fight? Is it going to change the outcome whether we down a boss or not? Is it going to change your standing in the guild? Will we sit people simply cause their class flat ass sux?

My point is this: None of us is/are fighting for #1 dps spots in the world... it does not matter whether any of us make 38k dps in any given fight or 41 - or 43 or whatever. So there simply is no reason to whine about it (or state obvious facts as others would call it). Go by your own logic and transfer that to hunters... we should be doing more or less equally "bad" in most fights - and still you see our hunters topping the meters in pretty much every fight there is currently. How do you explain that?

I am starting to lose my point.. so i will simply stop writing here.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Sazda

[Viledead]

Sazda I know we're not in a top 100 guild, but I always want my performance to be as if I am. Even despite lower gear, less attendance (and therefore less experience), etc. Sure given ATR progression it doesn't matter as much, but that is not what I am reviewing. Hell we can have 2 fire mages doing 40k or less dps and still down H Yor. As a warlock in ATR I'm fine.

So, you asked "based on what." Shit-tons of blogs, forum posts, etc. I do not write on here ideas that only sit in my head because I'm crying in my beer - this is from constant reading and research about my primary PvE class. I absorb information about warlocks constantly. I don't write it all here because it's a novel. So when I say "hagara: sit locks. move on" - it's a summary point that warlocks are terribly weak on this encounter.

@snuggl re hagara. Warlock dps takes rampup - so hagara +dmg debuff is too short - we have to set up dots/etc and by then debuff is over. Exactly same issue as spine. Aff is ok for multi-dotting, but of course other dot classes are better. So call it what you want, but 2/8 DS fights you are gimping the raid by bringing warlocks. Again, assuming everything else is equal (no carries, equal skill, etc).

FYI I don't whine. I just don't feel like structuring a harvard business review whitepaper about it with propositions and defensible logic. I summarized instead.

[Lyntha]

Hell we can have 2 fire mages doing 40k or less dps and still down H Yor. As a warlock in ATR I'm fine.

Just as a point of reference... Take a look at our attendance spreadsheet right here: https://docs.google....&hl=en_US#gid=7

We were missing 8 people, 8! And we downed a new heroic boss. I'm working with what I got. On both nights, we literally had just enough people to raid (25) and nothing more. If I had people sitting who would do more damage than the people already in, I would have sat them. While this guild is clearly more of a raiding community than a hardcore progression guild (And that's what I love about it), we do have expectations of bringing your best when we raid. If somebody is not performing up to par, the officers work on performance improvement during non-raid times. If it's affecting our ability to down a boss (Like it was on H Yor), we sit the particular person and bring in somebody else, IF THERE ARE PEOPLE AVAILABLE. If there were alternates for our 2/3 people that were low on Heroic Yor, you bet your ass I would've brought somebody else in.

Also Vile, I can see how locks would be suboptimal on Hagara but it's not the most difficult fight out there compared to Spine, Madness and Blackhorn. While you're suboptimal, I highly doubt that any guild would wipe on that fight because locks did 1k less dps than another class because their dps requires ramp-up time. As Sazda said, you still have pretty good multi-dotting and burst AOE opportunities. Obviously, Demo is tits for short, bursty AOE with Demon Form + Immolation Aura + Felstorm and both Afflic and Destro are awesome at multi-dotting due to Bane/Dots. You guys even out!

Now locks are clearly awful on spine but a ton of classes are. Hunters were sat for that fight too because of our pets and lack of burst CD's. That fight in particular was just a fail on blizzard's end, something they acknowledged by the great spine nerf.

[Sazda]

snugg: i dont think he was complaining that we had people in the raid that are on low dps instead of benching them.. he was merely answering to my point that we are not going for #1 dps spots and it wont matter for our progression whether someone does 1, 2, 3, 6k less dps.

We will just have to agree to disagree here. We are both looking at the whole thing from completely different angles. I simply do not agree with your reasoning. Just because some people write on their blogs or in forum posts that locks suck does not make the point an automatic truth. Every class would like to be better and stronger and the grass is - as they say - always greener on the other side. Hence, people like talking about how bad their own class is. I do not really pay a lot of attention to those kind of things. Maybe that is because i am a computer scientist. I need data - data that can hardly lie (careful with that statement ).

back to hagara: Just cause locks do not have the greatest burst damage and therefore cannot take advantage of the short increased damage dealt to hagara (isnt it only like 15% anyways for a short time?) does not make locks useless in the fight. The only argument I have is to point you to the logs i mentioned above, which clearly state that locks are not useless in this fight... but now we are simply turning in circles.

I understand all your points i guess.. i simply draw different conclusiions from most of them.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Sazda