DKP System Rules

[Varibash]

DKP systems are nice because it puts all the power in the hands of the raider with the DKP, if you really want an item , you will dump a lot of DKP on it

[Sazda]

DKP systems are nice because it puts all the power in the hands of the raider with the DKP, if you really want an item , you will dump a lot of DKP on it

Exactly, it puts the power in the hands of the raider... never a good idea!

[Varibash]

how much you spent on the belt isn't our fault, that's completely on you, we didn't force you to bid high and "pay to much" you payed exactly what you thought the belt was worth to you.

[Sazda]

how much you spent on the belt isn't our fault, that's completely on you, we didn't force you to bid high and "pay to much" you payed exactly what you thought the belt was worth to you.

uhm... wrong?

read again:

2) If one item drops and one person bids for it - that person should pay the min amount of dkp (by the old system). If two items drop and only two persons bid on it - they AS WELL should pay the min amount of dkp. It makes no sense that if two items drop for two people, that they pay more than if one item drops for one person. (example: Unholy paid min dkp for his item tonight, lamps and me paid more for our belts although noone else bid on it). We really should get our 5 or whatever DKP it was back, since this seems like a flaw in the system.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Sazda

[Varibash]

how's that our fault.... you guys bid what you thought it would take to win it, and you got charged what you bid.... seems like the system is working as intended.

[Sazda]

how's that our fault.... you guys bid what you thought it would take to win it, and you got charged what you bid.... seems like the system is working as intended.

You are either just trying to argue against me (seems to be a favorite thing of yours), ignoring the facts or simply not understanding my point here.

I will try to make it more clear for you bash:

If Unholy had bid 50 DKP for his item last night, he would still have paid 11 DKP for it, because not one other person bid on it. It was one item with one interested taker.

Before that, we had two items for two interested takers. However, we had to pay more than the min bid - because either your interpretation of the system was wrong or the system itself was simply flawed.

So the underlying question is:

Why did Lamps and me have to overpay for our items while other people did not?

Not sure how else I could explain this so you understand.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Sazda

[Varibash]

I understood what you meant, just wait for the new rules to be updated. We made all the choices last night, the new rules will be set in stone and they will not be changed anymore.

[Sazda]

That is great - as i said before. And thank you for understanding. My problem is still that I believe that I was overcharged last night and I would like to get my DKP back if possible.

[Viledead]

@saz that's why raiders collude.. Not advising to do it, but it's why it happens. Other solutions don't work - loot council takes ages (and still gets frustration), group loot in 25m can't work, and epgp is too confusing for most. It's been what, 2-3 weeks of raiding? Wouldn't worry about it really - iterate the system til it works for the guild.

FYI there should be DKP minus for missing enchants/buffs.. Hehe

[Sazda]

@saz that's why raiders collude..

The point is, that we played by the system rules.. KNOWING we can overbid a lot BECAUSE we would pay min bid if noone else bids on it. That is how the system was set up (seemed to be set up). We got screwed because the system was not executed that way. I think what happened is that the loot master simply made a mistake. What makes me angry is that none of the officers are willing to admit that. I would have never bid so high if I knew that this would happen. Does anyone here understand that?

Edited October 24, 2012 by Sazda

[Unholy]

I must have missed something. What item are you talking about? You and Lamps both bid on it? What did you both bid, and what were you charged?

@saz that's why raiders collude.. Not advising to do it, but it's why it happens.

This was discussed by officers as well. It will be laid out in the updated rules what will happen to those we discover are trying to game the system. So if you want to do it, be our guest. Just don't complain if you get caught.

[Sazda]

I must have missed something. What item are you talking about? You and Lamps both bid on it? What did you both bid, and what were you charged?

Just read my previous posts here. It does not matter what we bid. We both got charged more than mind bid +1, even though there was no competition for the belts. 2 identical belts dropped, 2 people wanted them = no competition just like if one item drops and one person wants it.

[Varibash]

for double items like that I am pretty sure the rule was, 2nd highest bid +1, is what both parties were charged.

[Unholy]

As stated in the rules (until next week), if you both bid on it, the highest bidder should get it for the second highest bid +1. Did that not happen? I'm not sure what the min bid has to do with this scenario.

Sazda bids 100

Lamps bids 15

Sazda wins and spends 16dkp. (lowest bid +1)

[Sazda]

@Unholy:

This is not about a bid for one item, but for two identical items. Please re-read my posts above (yes, asking you again ).

for double items like that I am pretty sure the rule was, 2nd highest bid +1, is what both parties were charged.

Do you really just like to make random nonsense comments now?

From the rules:

"The winner will be the person who bid the most DKP and they will be charged 1 DKP more than the next lowest bid."

That is the only thing in the rules that comes close to explaining what happens during the bid process. That line is explaining how bidding for ONE item works out. Now if you have TWO IDENTICAL items, the line would/could read as follows:

"The winners will be the persons who bid the most DKP and they will be charged 1 DKP more than the next lowest bid."

Exactly stating what I am trying to explain.

[Unholy]

If there were two of the same item, and you knew only you and lamps would be bidding on it, why you bid higher than min in the first place is beyond me.

[Rebelogic]

I want to hear more about whispers to fellow raiders that include, "Grats on that piece man!" or "You deserve it!" or "Rebel, stop being dead and accept this rez!" The point is, let's spend more time appreciating when others get loot, rather than worrying about loot for yourself too much. We will all get loot at an overall average price.

I always feel good when others get loot, except for Ghost, fuck that guy.

[Sazda]

If there were two of the same item, and you knew only you and lamps would be bidding on it, why you bid higher than min in the first place is beyond me.

1) Because I did not know that only Lamps and me would bid on it

2) Because I did not make any pre-arrangements for any items dropped so far

3) Because according to the rules, overbidding is not punishing if you are the only person bidding

All reasons I have stated before.

[Varibash]

but you're asking that the same rules apply to double items in the case of 2 people bidding to work the same way it does for an item only one person bids on, we didn't set it up that way, we set it up for 2nd highest + 1.

People making a fuss over this s causing us to simplifying the system to: you pay what you bid, be it only one person bidding on a single item, or 2 people bidding on duplicate items. What ever you bid will be the amount charged, no more reducing to 2nd highest+1.

If you're the only person bidding on an item, and you bid 25, you are getting charged 25, no more reducing to minimum bid. The way DKP is supposed to work is each individual raider is responsible for his own dkp, you bid based upon how much the item is worth to you and how much you are willing to part with.

[Unholy]

I'm growing tired. Bottom line, even though there were two items, it was treated as one item as far as bidding was concerned. What we did last night will be upheld tonight. After tonight the point is moot as the rules are changing to cover the scenario and others.

[Sazda]

That is simply not true Unholy. It was never cleared up in the rules how bidding for two items work. You guys simply made up that we have to pay more than other people who bid on single items who also have no competition. I just applied the one item rule to a multiple item scenario. It is simply not fair to have Lamps and me (in this case) pay more than others... more than you last night.

...Because of you making a fuss over this...

I am sorry I caused you trouble buttercup. I sincerely apologize that you had to use your brain to think about this situation and deal with it. I am also very sorry that I was the only person in the whole raid who has a problem with it. Or maybe I should say that I am sorry because I am the only one posting about it. Every non-officer I talked to about this last night completely agrees with me. It is almost comical how you are acting.

[Lyntha]

I see where you're coming from Saz. This specific scenario was never covered in the rules as the items were designed to be bid on one at a time but it was something that the officers never considered. I would be upset myself as well. The bottom line is that the officers made a mistake.

We now need to move past it and fix the situation, which the loot officers have. A tweaked system will be put into place next week that is simpler and intuitive. Sorry that you had something done to your DKP which you didn't anticipate but cut us some slack - We are implementing a brand new DKP system during the first weeks of a new xpac with a large number of new raiders. We're fixing things as we go and identifying and resolving situations as they come up. We're not perfect but we won't make the same mistake twice.

[Varibash]

I don't get you at all, sometimes you are very easy to deal with and talk too, and other times you can be very difficult. If other people in the raid have a problem with it, they need to address it, because from our perspective, it's just you. That's why we ask our raiders to be open with us if they have a problem. If what you say is true, then that clearly isn't happening.

[Unholy]

I read that as two votes for cunt. Sweet!

[Lyntha]

Edit: On a related note, a lot of your problems seem to stem from the fact that you feel like the officers aren't worrying about this problem. We ARE, and we solved the issue last night with changes to be implemented next week. That being said, some of the officers' attitiudes towards you have been less than civil as they always feel on the defensive when dealing with you. Just calm down man and stop being so on the offensive with us. This isn't some grand conspiracy, it's us doing what we think is best for the guild and when our members provide feedback to us, we DO listen and we DO make changes - as can be seen by the changes that were decided on last night and will be put into effect next week.