Crazy Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 Whatever you say, but when people keep on failing mechanics and don't get sat because "if we do it with less than 20 people then why have a mythic team", people like me are going to get mad. I don't see Imperator kill as a loot focused kill.... Its all about the honor. I don't care about normal we can start at heroic and kill him once before next raid. Why? Coz thats how we roll baby! How do you know how we roll?
Mortelinnor Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 Whatever you say, but when people keep on failing mechanics and don't get sat because "if we do it with less than 20 people then why have a mythic team", people like me are going to get mad. And this right here is why we have a shitty raid atmosphere.
Crazy Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 Whatever you say, but when people keep on failing mechanics and don't get sat because "if we do it with less than 20 people then why have a mythic team", people like me are going to get mad. And this right here is why we have a shitty raid atmosphere. Yeah it is, because people get frustrated when people don't get sat for failing mechanics or doing low dps which results in a wipe. There are not enough fun people in the guild to make a wipe more enjoyable than a kill. Then, they take that frustration out before, during and after raid.
Varlash Posted January 15, 2015 Author Posted January 15, 2015 Whatever you say, but when people keep on failing mechanics and don't get sat because "if we do it with less than 20 people then why have a mythic team", people like me are going to get mad. And this right here is why we have a shitty raid atmosphere. Yeah it is, because people get frustrated when people don't get sat for failing mechanics or doing low dps which results in a wipe. There are not enough fun people in the guild to make a wipe more enjoyable than a kill. Then, they take that frustration out before, during and after raid. If that was about my comment, i didn't say why have a mythic team i said they need to be replaced.
Crazy Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) Whatever you say, but when people keep on failing mechanics and don't get sat because "if we do it with less than 20 people then why have a mythic team", people like me are going to get mad. And this right here is why we have a shitty raid atmosphere. Yeah it is, because people get frustrated when people don't get sat for failing mechanics or doing low dps which results in a wipe. There are not enough fun people in the guild to make a wipe more enjoyable than a kill. Then, they take that frustration out before, during and after raid. If that was about my comment, i didn't say why have a mythic team i said they need to be replaced. Replaced with who? It takes longer than a day to recruit people. We 19 manned Kargath, does that mean we need to replace Willshattner? Edited January 15, 2015 by Muln
Mortelinnor Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 There are not enough fun people in the guild to make a wipe more enjoyable than a kill. Of course a kill is always more enjoyable than a wipe, but that's completely off the point. If you're mad because of either: a) People not being sat; Not everyone doing as much dps as you. c) Progressing as a guild on a boss you already went out and pugged; you don't need to throw a tantrum, as it only spoils the raid atmosphere. The group is clearly divided between 2 opinions: Some people are here for the "semi-casual" raiding atmosphere as we advertise on all of our recruitment posts, and then there's others who only seek to push more and more content no matter what, and are upset because they feel they're being held back. There's clearly a lot of tensions between those 2 mindsets, and that's something we don't need. Replaced with who? It takes longer than a day to recruit people. We 19 manned Kargath, does that mean we need to replace Willshattner? Or you know, we could also simply not bash on Will because he had internet issues for our two last attempts. Just a thought.
Lyntha Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) I agree with Mort 100%. What you are missing though, mort, is that Bash advertised and built a raid team more focused on Progression than a fun raid atmosphere. He wanted to take the guild into a more hardcore direction. Some of those raiders recruited during that period now feel cheated as we go back towards our roots. Other raiders who have been here longer think that we aren't back towards our roots and casual enough and are upset. Both groups have reason to be upset, but only one group is going to be happier in the future for sure, and that's the more casual group. We are up front about what we want to be and we encourage people to leave and raid somewhere else if the environment suits them. Look at what happened with Red for example. Also, I sat 11 unique people at various points during Kargath progression. I specifically sat 6 people for mechanics issues, 4 people for DPS issues and one person for attendance issues. I'm not going to list those people to shame them but people did get sat. Some people ended up coming back in again later or on different days but people got rotated out if they weren't performing. One last important thing: Keep it civil and don't attack people! Otherwise, this discussion is awesome and we want to hear everyone's opinions and feedback so keep it coming. Edited January 15, 2015 by Lyntha
Crazy Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) There are not enough fun people in the guild to make a wipe more enjoyable than a kill. Of course a kill is always more enjoyable than a wipe, but that's completely off the point. If you're mad because of either: a) People not being sat; Not everyone doing as much dps as you. c) Progressing as a guild on a boss you already went out and pugged; you don't need to throw a tantrum, as it only spoils the raid atmosphere. The group is clearly divided between 2 opinions: Some people are here for the "semi-casual" raiding atmosphere as we advertise on all of our recruitment posts, and then there's others who only seek to push more and more content no matter what, and are upset because they feel they're being held back. There's clearly a lot of tensions between those 2 mindsets, and that's something we don't need. Replaced with who? It takes longer than a day to recruit people. We 19 manned Kargath, does that mean we need to replace Willshattner? Or you know, we could also simply not bash on Will because he had internet issues for our two last attempts. Just a thought. Why did we keep him in instead of bring in someone wasn't having connection issues like oh idk Jesseh or Gromn? I'm not bashing on Will as a player, but why keep him in? Also, to your 'spoiling the atmosphere' point. 1) How is wanting someone to sit because they are failing mechanics toxic in any way? It will be needed to kill the boss 2) I don't give a shit about people doing less dps than me because I know I will be top with Fire Nova, it's just my class, but people who do less damage than their single target need to be questioned. 3) I didn't pug it, I did the progression on my druid in another guild. I would still like to kill it on my shaman, because it is my main class and an entirely different perspective on the fight I'm not throwing a tantrum, I don't care what boss we kill next but I'm leaning to mythic because Mythic is more fun for me. But having the mindset that more people will get the heroic kill over a mythic kill is what I've been arguing about. If Snugg sat 6 people for mechanic issues, that is basically less than the 20 people right there. Edited January 15, 2015 by Muln
Lyntha Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 Why did we keep him in instead of bring in someone wasn't having connection issues like oh idk Jesseh or Gromn? I'm not bashing on Will as a player, but why keep him in? Because he DC'd once and said he was good. We trust that he's not intentionally lying to us for one, and people can't predict when they'll be DC'd for two. Really, why is this even being asked? How would YOU feel if we were close to a kill and you DC'd once just to be sat and we got the kill without you? If Snugg sat 6 people for mechanic issues, that is basically less than the 20 people right there. Not all at once. These are people that got sat at one point or another due to excessive failing of mechanics. We have a comfortable bench but it's still only 5 or so people on most nights. If we sit every person who messes up during that fight, we'd be sitting 3 people every fight and nobody would get comfortable, nobody would improve and it would take FOREVER to constantly swap people.
Crazy Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) Why did we keep him in instead of bring in someone wasn't having connection issues like oh idk Jesseh or Gromn? I'm not bashing on Will as a player, but why keep him in? Because he DC'd once and said he was good. We trust that he's not intentionally lying to us for one, and people can't predict when they'll be DC'd for two. Really, why is this even being asked? How would YOU feel if we were close to a kill and you DC'd once just to be sat and we got the kill without you? He dc'd twice.... and you guys put him in right after he reconnected. If you disconnect once, there is a REALLY FUCKING GOOD CHANCE that your will disconnect soon again. If Snugg sat 6 people for mechanic issues, that is basically less than the 20 people right there. Not all at once. These are people that got sat at one point or another due to excessive failing of mechanics. We have a comfortable bench but it's still only 5 or so people on most nights. If we sit every person who messes up during that fight, we'd be sitting 3 people every fight and nobody would get comfortable, nobody would improve and it would take FOREVER to constantly swap people. The bench is also a lot of the lower dps,and I never said sit someone if they hit the mine or fell in a pit once. So say you have 3 out of the 5 decent people on the bench that actually bring progression worthy dps. Since you don't need to have 20 people that's like 8 people getting sat. We don't have 28 people. So what I've been saying is that we won't have 20 people to kill Margok, so lets bring 20 people to kill a slightly easier boss. Edited January 15, 2015 by Muln
Varlash Posted January 16, 2015 Author Posted January 16, 2015 I agree with Mort 100%. What you are missing though, mort, is that Bash advertised and built a raid team more focused on Progression than a fun raid atmosphere. He wanted to take the guild into a more hardcore direction. Some of those raiders recruited during that period now feel cheated as we go back towards our roots. Other raiders who have been here longer think that we aren't back towards our roots and casual enough and are upset. Both groups have reason to be upset, but only one group is going to be happier in the future for sure, and that's the more casual group. We are up front about what we want to be and we encourage people to leave and raid somewhere else if the environment suits them. Look at what happened with Red for example. So your saying you don't intend to progress like we did in SoO this expansion, and that raid team isnt going to happen again?
Lyntha Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Im just gonna copy and paste what I said in the shoutbox: We are going to push progression as much as possible but that's not the primary focus of the guild. If our push for progression gets in the way of having fun or having a good raid atmosphere, the raid atmosphere wins. I've been in top US guilds where they are straight up assholes to anyone who messes up. It gets results, but the turnover rates in those guilds are horrendous. That's not what our guild is. If you want to join a raid where progression is more important than treating each other with civility or having fun, go join a different guild because that's not who we are.
Varlash Posted January 16, 2015 Author Posted January 16, 2015 There was nothing wrong with our raid atmosphere in SoO, thats the confusing part, your first comment also said nothing about atmosphere and was basicly telling people that want to progress to find another guild
Mastric Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Raid atmosphere is SoO was the worst it's ever been. Everyone wanted progression, no one wanted to sing, all so sad
Mortelinnor Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Raid atmosphere in SoO was pretty tensed, imo. I remember this one day where a lowly shaman tried to make a joke and get people to laugh instead of raging at a boss. It turned out... poorly.
Varlash Posted January 16, 2015 Author Posted January 16, 2015 Yeah because that was a poor decision, wiping a raid is not the way to make people laugh
Mastric Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 I just want to remind everyone that this guy used to be one of our officers. God damn I miss Rebel.
Roqwell Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) Posting days late on Monday before next raid cause college. Still want to say my piece on this. I've been in guilds that have been heavy on progression and were near top on the server. The type of guilds that, once a boss is dead, we all immediately relog so it will go on the record on WoWprogress ASAP. It was always fairly tense. The only times it wasn't tense is if we were full clearing to farm stuff. Loot and progression were nice but to an extent and it became more important to people than anything else - to me included. My character was named Nidra and I became infamous on struggling progression nights or pointlessly consistent wipes to NidRAWR (as my guild called it) and yell over speak. It usually made the problem disappear.... but it's not the tactic I liked to use a lot. I would rather not be in a guild that reaches that level of tense drive for progression/loot or one whose officers/GM would actually allow/support my outbursts and furthermore not a guild that obsesses more about loot, how many people get loot, who gets the loot, than catching up on old bosses we missed or doing things for a silly achievement and nothing more. I sometimes get a worrying feeling the guild is heading into that direction or if not that some people are trying to force it that way. This post started on what we want to kill tomorrow and I think it got a little off track and was tipping on the fence near argument territory. Progression is important and is fun but I don't think every single raid night has to be dedicated from minute one to the end on progression alone when there are other options we're considering. Heroic Imp isn't as much progression as Twins but it does give us a couple benefits: - The Ahead achiev. - A few pieces of loot that will replace other pieces. - The full clear that many people don't even have on normal (so some satisfaction and catharsis for them). - Likely won't take as long to down given we've had some practice here and there. Mythic Twins: - Definite progression into mythic. - Pieces of loot that will definitely be upgrades. - Will likely take a long time to down with little to no practice. To me personally: H Imp gives more of a personal achievement while M Twins will give a pixelated achievement of better loot/clear progression. Pros/cons to each. I don't have too heavy a lean to either, honestly, though it seems like I'm more for H Imp I will go with what officers/majority desire. Though there is that clearly rational fear that if we did Twins we would never go back for Imp whereas if we did Imp there's no question we'd go to Twins next. But I think it's important to remember - as I understand it from the officers - this guild wants to have a nice raid atmosphere where people are nice to each other and have fun... but also to progress and with a couple progress to rank. That is an extremely tough pair of goals to balance and unfortunately whatever we pick here someone is going to be upset. Whatever option the officers go with someone is going to be somewhere from a little irked to furious. Just don't. Take a deep breath, calm down, and let it go. When the decision is made it's made and the conversations/arguments need to stop because arguing about a decision that has already been finalized is more wasteful than going back and doing Highmaul normal for two weeks. It makes everything tense and the stress of being mad we aren't doing what you wanted isn't worth it. Just try to find fun in what we are doing rather than mulling over what we aren't doing. Not good for you, not good for the raid, not good for everyone. And I'm done for today cause I have a lot of homework... Edited January 19, 2015 by Roqwell
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