State of the Raid 2015

[Lyntha]

In the past year, the officers have run the guild in a manner in which we try to be all-inclusive.  We tried to adapt the guild to all of our members.  The officers have sat down and discussed how we run our guild and decided that this is not the right approach.  We are putting the needs and wants of the few in front of the needs and wants of the many.  Our attempts to be friendly and inclusive towards one person would result in us unintentionally making the experience worse for everyone else.  It's not fair to our raiders to suffer a degraded experience for the benefit of one person.

 

We are no longer going to tolerate actions and behaviors which impact the majority of our raid and our raiders to try to be fair or inclusive towards individual members.  The goal of this guild is to have a casual approach to the commitment necessary for raiding (2 days a week) while maintaining a focused and efficient raiding environment so that we can have a good time.  We have failed our members in some of these aspects.

 

We are going to be implementing the following changes:

 

1.)  There is no longer a "Late" or "Excused Absence" with regards to how we track attendance.  If you are late, you are marked as absent for the night.  If you have an excused absence, it is still an absence.  We only raid 2 days a week and people consistently being late or taking excused absences are crippling our ability to progress.  It doesn't make sense for us to gear people only for them to not be there when we need them for mythic progression.

 

2.)  Not being inside the raid by start of raid or after a break is an EP minus.  Continued issues will lead to you being marked absent for that night because you weren't there and active when you were expected to.  One person wasting 19-29 other persons' time IS NO LONGER ACCEPTABLE.

 

3.)  If you cannot maintain 85% attendance, you will no longer be part of the mythic team.  This means 85% on-time attendance.  This number is just under you missing one day every 4 weeks.  If you cannot make 7 of every 8 raids, you will not meet this requirement.  Since we only raid 2 days a week, it's not unreasonable for us to expect our members to be there.

 

4.)  All members must be prepared with regards to role strategies for bosses.  We will expect all members to read up on boss summaries and know the major things to watch out for your role.  We don't expect you to watch a 15 minute long video and know every part of the fight...  That's what the raid leaders are there for.  We do expect you to take 1 minute and read up on what major abilities you need to watch out for on each fight.

 

5.)  All members must be prepared with Seals, Flasks and Enchantments prior to start of raid time.  We are wasting too much time handing out flasks during raid.  Maintain a stack of your own flasks or talk to the officers/Kansir after raid or before raid for flasks when you get low.  Failure to have flasks or enchantments will lead to you being removed from the raid team.

 

6.)  Negative attitudes are not allowed.  This is pretty self-explanatory.  Negative attitudes snowball.

 

7.)  Making fun of the rules or complaining about application of the rules during raid times are not allowed.  If you have a problem with the rules or how they are applied, bring it up the officers after raid time via whispers or forum PM's.  There will be no more wasted time with people bitching in TS during the raid about the rules or saying "I think Raider X deserves a verbal warning for what he/she just said!".  If you feel that the issue is time-sensitive, whisper an officer during the raid but do not abuse this.

 

8.)  Problem raiders will be removed.  We have allowed problem raiders too much latitude and it is negatively affecting the morale of the raid.  Individuals who continue to have issues will be presented with an action plan for improvement.  If they do not immediately improve and do what is asked of them, they will no longer be part of the raiding team.  We are starting this process on two individuals.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Lyntha

[Tourettsbear]

*This message has been Tyrant approved*

[Lyntha]

Me and Jim are just too nice.  We really wanted to resolve issues instead of realizing that some issues are a lost cause.  It's time to cut our losses and focusing on improving the raiding experience for everyone instead of for a select few.

 

This new approach is being implemented to make us more efficient without sacrificing our core tenants.  If one person is being unefficient, they are wasting the time of 19-29 other people, which is simply unacceptable.  We are still going to try to keep our raiding environment fun and that's still our biggest goal.  Hopefully these changes help to get us there.

More information on Action Plans:

 

We have discussed in the past that repeated infractions will still lead to removal from the raid team or a gkick but we haven't really fleshed out that process.  The action plan process is our implementation of that idea.  Here's how it works.

 

1.)  The officers must agree as a majority that a raid member is:

• Repeatedly violating guild rules and guidelines
• This behavior has been ongoing for at least two weeks
• The individual is not showing any signs of improvement or is not improving quickly enough

2.)  If all officers agree, the member is put on an action plan for a period of one month.  They will be spoken to prior to the next raid and informed that they are on action plan

 

3.)  Once a member is on an action plan, any infractions will result in removal from the raid team

 

4.)  Repeated infractions during the action plan time period or severe infractions will result in removal from the guild

 

5.)  If the member improves and is not an issue during their action plan period, they are removed from the action plan after one month.

[Allison]

Good luck.

[Tourettsbear]

One thing I hope every raider can acknowledge is that this should help the raid become a better environment, much less stressful,  and all and all bring back the fun to raiding. 

[Summa]

Well, this sucks for me. It seems with the new rules put in place, i will not be doing any mythic progression. My new job has a schedule that changes and i have to work up to 18 hours with no notice, and my training schedule is all jacked up as it is.

 

 

I understand it. But it still makes me sad.

[Lyntha]

Yeah, that really sucks.  You can understand why this needs to happen though.  When you raid with us, you are an absolute pleasure.  You bring nothing but positivity to the raid.  That doesn't mean anything though if we go to do mythic progression and can't because three of our healers are missing because we don't enforce attendance tracking.  During the past 10 raids, you've missed half of them.  We can't roll the dice and have a 50% chance of you being there when we need you.

 

The people currently at risk of failing to meet attendance guidelines are:

 

Summa

Thebestdk

Crimsontrail

Homeslice

 

If any of these people cannot fix their attendance/tardiness issues, we will attempt to recruit somebody to replace them.  If you can fix your issue before we replace you, no problem!  But if we recruit somebody that takes your place, we are not going to sit the new person when/if you come back.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Lyntha

[Allison]

I just want to point out that Summah, Michael, Jesseh, and Homeslice are not the reason why the raid team is going to shit.

[Tourettsbear]

Nerita,

 

We know that. But the concept behind this isnt fairness towards individualism, it's  fairness to the raid team as a whole. 

 

What Lyntha did not mention is I am also very close to being on that list. I've missed 4 raids, late for one, and I have to leave 5 minutes early tomorrow. If I miss too many more raids, my name will be on there and the position of tank will be up for grabs. If you look at my attendance, you will see that my attendance has gotten better over the last ~10 raid days?

 

I know where you're coming from, honestly I do... But don't look at it individually, look at the entirety of the situation. We're still running heroic content, which means All of those members will still have a raid spot..It just mean's for Mythic content they will be riding the bench. Unless attendance improves.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Tourettsbear

[Allison]

We still have people showing poor performance with 100% attendance, where I'm 75% sure that the people who won't be able to raid because of attendance are better at dealing with mechanics; but they won't have a chance to raid.

 

And by mechanics, I mean only that. it doesn't matter what your DPS is, or what spec you're playing. Just. Plain. Old. Mechanics.

We still have people getting warnings all night, dying just because they can, and still they're in the raid. I don't see how you're going to change the guild to a happy go lucky place without following the rules you put in place.

[Lyntha]

Precisely what TBear said.  Jesseh and Homeslice started this xpac out a bit rough but have lately been outstanding raiders.  Summah and Mike have always been outstanding.  That doesn't change the fact that us letting them constantly show up late or miss raids is slowing down our progression and therefore wasting others' time.  I want all four of these raiders to make it on time consistently, but that's beyond my control.  What is within my control is ensuring that somebody will be there in that raid spot that makes it on time consistently.  Attendance is not a hard number either.  It's not like as soon as somebody goes below 85% attendance, alarms go off at ATR Headquarters and we remove that raider.  We are looking for a pattern.  If somebody cannot consistently make at least 7 of 8 raids, that will show.  TBear is an excellent example.  He missed a bunch of time at the start of the xpac but has since been here.  We're not going to punish him for missing raids at the start of the xpac when he hasn't missed a single tick of EP in the last 2 months.

 

Also, Jesseh is borderline not on the list.  Jesseh was late a bunch at the start (Just like Tbear missed a bunch of raids at start) but has lately been much better.

We still have people showing poor performance with 100% attendance, where I'm 75% sure that the people who won't be able to raid because of attendance are better at dealing with mechanics; but they won't have a chance to raid.

 

And by mechanics, I mean only that. it doesn't matter what your DPS is, or what spec you're playing. Just. Plain. Old. Mechanics.

We still have people getting warnings all night, dying just because they can, and still they're in the raid. I don't see how you're going to change the guild to a happy go lucky place without following the rules you put in place.

 

We will look to fix both situations, but deflecting attention from one situation to another isn't how we're going to handle things.

 

There are 3 raiders who will be spoken to tonight and will be closely monitored by officers going forward.  2 for mechanics issues and 1 for behavior issues.  2 more players are going on action plans immediately and may be kicked.  We are not saying one thing and doing another.

[Allison]

What I'm trying to say is you cannot change your work schedule. You cannot change what times you go to school. And I'm not saying you have to waste everyone's time, but by letting people stick around after they've fucked up 3, 4, 5 times, and not letting someone from the bench, into the raid you're not trying everything.

 

And I was speaking from the previous rule stand point. Warnings were given out without follow ups, etc.

[Gromn]

i know im always late because of school and such, i also posted my situation my few weeks back, that being said i don't mind not having the priority spot for the 20man mythic as long as its ok if i can at least ride the bench to sit in, or come for flex heroics until my schedule is better. because of the epgp system i am already down ep so i have lower priority on gear so i dont see it as me necessarily taking gear from "main" raiders 

[Roqwell]

 

1.)  There is no longer a "Late" or "Excused Absence" with regards to how we track attendance.  If you are late, you are marked as absent for the night.  If you have an excused absence, it is still an absence.  We only raid 2 days a week and people consistently being late or taking excused absences are crippling our ability to progress.  It doesn't make sense for us to gear people only for them to not be there when we need them for mythic progression.

 

The only thing I draw slight issues from. This policy is stricter than the attendance policies here at college. There are always instances where despite there only being a three absent limit the professor has certain circumstances where the absence will be excused. Same situation as the raid, I only see the dude two days a week for less time than we raid but there are still instances that can be excused because they are just out of the student's control or the situation is so severe it's understandable they can't be there.

 

I get that a random post saying you won't be there with no explanation won't be excused but some instances when explained I think should be excused. The one-time situations that are severely unlikely to happen again but are keeping the raider from the raid.

[mokou]

Not pointing fingers but Jesseh clearly hasnt been an "outstanding raider"

 

His poor dps and constant deaths to avoidable mechanics can attest to that

 

The only part he excels at is his attendance and attendance only

 

Neither can Homeslice

[Ansky]

All I have to say is that to most people, casual = flexible. This is not flexible. What matters is who you are (a friend), how you play (the effort you put in), and your loyalty to the guild (like posting afk instead of just not showing up). By implementing this you are alienating people who don't want to feel pressured to log in at 730 instead 735 because it can cause them to lose their raid spot, not just some dkp/ep.

 

This will kill the guild as it was. And I don't mean in SOO (because our recruiting heroic SOO is what broke it in the first place). I mean as it was before, when people mattered, not a number. When you guys would do ready checks to ask who wanted to do x and who wanted to do y and listened instead of waving people off like a parent's "because I said so".

 

You are already losing your veteran members because of it, can't you see that? Is replacing your friends, your entire healer base, worth people who log in at 730 and are in raid when it doesn't matter worth shit in the big picture? When we have summons and don't usually pull bosses until 745-8 because of all the prepping that a raid takes anyway? You are really willing to dump your people for that?

 

I don't think the answer is yes. I think this post is BS because you won't do that. Because I'm not going to stress myself out if it's 729 and I just got home. Because I don't expect anyone else to do so. Because it's not worth it.

 

"Then we'll recruit" = "You're all disposable"

 

There is not one healer in our healer base that I would consider disposable for any reason barring dissappearance. 

 

This is not ok.

[Varibash]

These things are always fluid and discussion is always welcome. We don't want to replace anyone, and will make every effort to avoid doing so, but we need to find a balance. We will take all opinions into consideration and make decisions based upon what the raid team as a whole feels will be best. 

 

"these are more like guidelines, then actual rules."

 

We'll make changes based upon what the raid decides is best.

 

The raid team is the sum of it's parts, and we are only as strong as our weakest members.

 

So lets work together to bring everyone up to a level that will best help the raid as a whole improve and make a better environment for everyone.

[Lyntha]

What I'm trying to say is you cannot change your work schedule. You cannot change what times you go to school. And I'm not saying you have to waste everyone's time, but by letting people stick around after they've fucked up 3, 4, 5 times, and not letting someone from the bench, into the raid you're not trying everything.

 

And I was speaking from the previous rule stand point. Warnings were given out without follow ups, etc.

 

You cannot change your work schedule and you cannot change what times you go to school, but you can choose what guilds you make a commitment to.  If you make a commitment to raid in a guild whose hours are impossible to meet, it's not reasonable to expect a raid spot.

 

i know im always late because of school and such, i also posted my situation my few weeks back, that being said i don't mind not having the priority spot for the 20man mythic as long as its ok if i can at least ride the bench to sit in, or come for flex heroics until my schedule is better. because of the epgp system i am already down ep so i have lower priority on gear so i dont see it as me necessarily taking gear from "main" raiders 

 

Heroic scales up.  More people equals more loot so you're not stealing loot.  Even if we have to recruit to replace you, there should be on the spot on the heroic roster for you.

 

 

 

1.)  There is no longer a "Late" or "Excused Absence" with regards to how we track attendance.  If you are late, you are marked as absent for the night.  If you have an excused absence, it is still an absence.  We only raid 2 days a week and people consistently being late or taking excused absences are crippling our ability to progress.  It doesn't make sense for us to gear people only for them to not be there when we need them for mythic progression.

 

The only thing I draw slight issues from. This policy is stricter than the attendance policies here at college. There are always instances where despite there only being a three absent limit the professor has certain circumstances where the absence will be excused. Same situation as the raid, I only see the dude two days a week for less time than we raid but there are still instances that can be excused because they are just out of the student's control or the situation is so severe it's understandable they can't be there.

 

I get that a random post saying you won't be there with no explanation won't be excused but some instances when explained I think should be excused. The one-time situations that are severely unlikely to happen again but are keeping the raider from the raid.

 

 

One-time situations will happen.  That's fine.  If you're sick or on vacation or something, that's all gravy.  If you consistently miss raids due to your normal schedule, you shouldn't be committing to a raid schedule.  We're trying to crack down on people who are regulary absent or late, not somebody who misses a day here and there.  If you can make 100% of raids barring "Things that pop up", you'll be fine.  If you commit to a raid knowing that even in the best-case scenario you will only make 80% of the raid, your actual attendance is going to be much lower because of random things popping up.

Not pointing fingers but Jesseh clearly hasnt been an "outstanding raider"

 

His poor dps and constant deaths to avoidable mechanics can attest to that

 

The only part he excels at is his attendance and attendance only

 

Neither can Homeslice

 

Jesseh had DPS issues at the start of the Xpac.  He has since improved vastly.  He doesn't regularly make mechanics mistakes but isn't perfect either.  Jesseh is the perfect example of an average raider.  We love raiding with him (As we do with most of you!).

 

Homeslice needs improvement on the mechanics front as well as the attendance front.

[Mortelinnor]

 

 

2.)  Not being inside the raid by start of raid or after a break is an EP minus.  Continued issues will lead to you being marked absent for that night because you weren't there and active when you were expected to.  One person wasting 19-29 other persons' time IS NO LONGER ACCEPTABLE.

 

5.)  All members must be prepared with Seals, Flasks and Enchantments prior to start of raid time.  We are wasting too much time handing out flasks during raid.  Maintain a stack of your own flasks or talk to the officers/Kansir after raid or before raid for flasks when you get low.  Failure to have flasks or enchantments will lead to you being removed from the raid team.

 

I get home at 7:00 PM from school on Tuesdays and Wednesdays. I have barely half an hour to eat and get ready for raid. I try to be on time as much as I can, but I don't have time to be prepared with flasks/pots/seals before 7:30, I do it as soon as I log in, but if that's counting agaisnt me simply because I won't throw my life away for raid, then that's complete bullshit.

 

Also, as Nerita said, absolutely nothing was said on mechanics and how you'd handle people failing them. I'm aware that I do have difficulties with mechanics at times, but I get called out (infront of everyone) much more than other people who fail mechanics just like me.

 

This guild used to have a very friendly raiding attitude, not so much focused on progression as on providing everyone with a enjoyable raiding experience with friends (or that's the impression I had when I first joined). High progression should be a plus, not a goal to be achieved at any cost. All of these new rules seems like you want an extremely serious atmosphere, where people need to be serious constantly. Call it a better atmosphere if you want, but I feel a raid where people have fun is much better than one where everyone shuts up and fear for their raid spot.

 

I'm also sceptical about how these rules will be enforced any better than the last ones. The consequences were exactly the same: kick from the raid, and ultimately gkick. They were enforced only for some people, and others were allowed to make fun of them. These look exactly the same: "Here's the rules! Yes, they'll be enforced, look, we're putting X and Y on action plans. We'll blame them for this and that, but we won't blame other people who are doing exactly the same."

[Lyntha]

All I have to say is that to most people, casual = flexible. This is not flexible. What matters is who you are (a friend), how you play (the effort you put in), and your loyalty to the guild (like posting afk instead of just not showing up). By implementing this you are alienating people who don't want to feel pressured to log in at 730 instead 735 because it can cause them to lose their raid spot, not just some dkp/ep.

 

This will kill the guild as it was. And I don't mean in SOO (because our recruiting heroic SOO is what broke it in the first place). I mean as it was before, when people mattered, not a number. When you guys would do ready checks to ask who wanted to do x and who wanted to do y and listened instead of waving people off like a parent's "because I said so".

 

You are already losing your veteran members because of it, can't you see that? Is replacing your friends, your entire healer base, worth people who log in at 730 and are in raid when it doesn't matter worth shit in the big picture? When we have summons and don't usually pull bosses until 745-8 because of all the prepping that a raid takes anyway? You are really willing to dump your people for that?

 

I don't think the answer is yes. I think this post is BS because you won't do that. Because I'm not going to stress myself out if it's 729 and I just got home. Because I don't expect anyone else to do so. Because it's not worth it.

 

"Then we'll recruit" = "You're all disposable"

 

There is not one healer in our healer base that I would consider disposable for any reason barring dissappearance. 

 

This is not ok.

 

We aren't going to be nazis about this stuff.  If you log in at 7:35 once in a blue moon because you're running late, it's all good.  If you log in at 8:00 every day, it's a problem.

 

We HAVE had issues this xpac with people showing up late.  Our heroic progression has been an absolute muddled mess at times because we would be constantly adjusting healer makeup to adjust for 3-4 new people arriving to raid late and messing up the ratios we needed.  This is the stuff that we need to fix.  The important things we want are the following:

 

1.)  Are most people there at 7:30 so we can start trash without it being a wipefest?

2.)  Is everyone there once we get to the first boss?

 

You have nothing to fear Ansky, you have literally PERFECT attendance.  You haven't missed a single EP tick.  If everyone was like you, we wouldn't need to implement these changes.

[Mortelinnor]

 We don't want to replace anyone, and will make every effort to avoid doing so, 

Really? You're sure there's absolutely NO ONE you would like to replace at the first occasion?

[Tourettsbear]

Guys, thank you for bringing your concerns to us.

 

The officer's will discuss your concerns about raiding attendance.. Keep in mind everyone. This decision was made to better our raid team, environment and experience. If our discussion has had an opposite effect. i.e this raid attendance, we will re-hash it out.

 

Guys, Although this looks concrete..There is ALWAYS room for discussion, so please, bring us your concerns.

 

Thank you.

[Lyntha]

These things are always fluid and discussion is always welcome. We don't want to replace anyone, and will make every effort to avoid doing so, but we need to find a balance. We will take all opinions into consideration and make decisions based upon what the raid team as a whole feels will be best. 

 

"these are more like guidelines, then actual rules."

 

We'll make changes based upon what the raid decides is best.

 

The raid team is the sum of it's parts, and we are only as strong as our weakest members.

 

So lets work together to bring everyone up to a level that will best help the raid as a whole improve and make a better environment for everyone.

 

This is true, but we also have to caution that we are going to be more strict and rigid than we were before.  I will no longer bend over backwards and annoy 24 other people for the benefit of one person.  You cannot please everyone, and you cannot make everyone happy.  I would try to do so before, but it's a losing proposition in the long run.

 

I get home at 7:00 PM from school on Tuesdays and Wednesdays. I have barely half an hour to eat and get ready for raid. I try to be on time as much as I can, but I don't have time to be prepared with flasks/pots/seals before 7:30, I do it as soon as I log in, but if that's counting agaisnt me simply because I won't throw my life away for raid, then that's complete bullshit.

 

Then get your flasks/enchants after the raid.  Log in at 7:25 and get your seals real quick before you fly to raid, or have enough seals saved up that you can get your seals on break or after the raid.  This is basic time management.

 

 

Also, as Nerita said, absolutely nothing was said on mechanics and how you'd handle people failing them. I'm aware that I do have difficulties with mechanics at times, but I get called out (infront of everyone) much more than other people who fail mechanics just like me.

 

I make it a point to discuss who wiped to what during learning and fix the mistakes.  I don't hold it against everyone when are learning a fight.

 

When we are going for a kill and one person continually messes up the Kargath fixate, for example, they get sat.  If they are consistently getting sat for progression, the question begging to be asked is "If they are always sat for progression, why do we gear them up?".

 

 

This guild used to have a very friendly raiding attitude, not so much focused on progression as on providing everyone with a enjoyable raiding experience with friends (or that's the impression I had when I first joined). High progression should be a plus, not a goal to be achieved at any cost. All of these new rules seems like you want an extremely serious atmosphere, where people need to be serious constantly. Call it a better atmosphere if you want, but I feel a raid where people have fun is much better than one where everyone shuts up and fear for their raid spot.

 

I'm also sceptical about how these rules will be enforced any better than the last ones. The consequences were exactly the same: kick from the raid, and ultimately gkick. They were enforced only for some people, and others were allowed to make fun of them. These look exactly the same: "Here's the rules! Yes, they'll be enforced, look, we're putting X and Y on action plans. We'll blame them for this and that, but we won't blame other people who are doing exactly the same."

 

We're not making the guild more hardcore.  There's a difference between super hardcore and being more efficient.  We are trying to be more efficient with our time.  We want everyone to do their best of course, but my post doesn't go over mechanics issues and consequences as much because that's not as large of a focus for us.  We will only step in if somebody is doing very poorly consistently and has no reason to raid with us.  We want to quit wasting people's time but we're not going to become super hardcore.

 

This is giving the officers more tools.  Our raid tonight (2/10/15) was great.  We stayed focus and accomplished a lot but still had fun.  I really want this to work out for everyone and don't want people fearing for their raid spots or anyone.  At the same time, all of the officers want the capability to identify and remove any problem players before it affects guild morale.

 

 We don't want to replace anyone, and will make every effort to avoid doing so, 

Really? You're sure there's absolutely NO ONE you would like to replace at the first occasion?

 

 

Anyone who is in this guild is in here for a reason.  We want everyone to succeed and we probably enjoy raiding with you more than we dislike raiding with you.  That makes our job that much harder (And why I've failed so hard at in the past) but hard decisions must be made if we want to put the needs of the money ahead of the wants of the few.

[Tourettsbear]

 

 We don't want to replace anyone, and will make every effort to avoid doing so, 

Really? You're sure there's absolutely NO ONE you would like to replace at the first occasion?

 

Mort,

 

There is ABSOLUTELY NO ONE, we would like to replace. You and I don't often see eye to eye, based on that, I have no reason to lie to you.

 

You are literally 50/50 for me. Youre great until you won't shut up. That being said, I absolutely do not want you out of the raid group. Unless of course you continue to disrupt the raiding environment. You see Mort, certain things don't make a fun environment.. I.E. wasting lust at the start on a fight that we're learning, with a softa enrage..will cause us to wipe.. That's not fun for me, or other's...Once is fine, twice is annoying. 

 

Getting people going, or talking when people are trying to pay attention..or not listening to the mechanics is simply just disrespectful to your raid team. You do this regularly. 

 

Joking is encouraged..Please continue..

 

Being disrespectful is not. 

[Lyntha]

Guys, thank you for bringing your concerns to us.

 

The officer's will discuss your concerns about raiding attendance.. Keep in mind everyone. This decision was made to better our raid team, environment and experience. If our discussion has had an opposite effect. i.e this raid attendance, we will re-hash it out.

 

Guys, Although this looks concrete..There is ALWAYS room for discussion, so please, bring us your concerns.

 

Thank you.

 

TBear is right.  In the end, we are still officers because we are advocates for the raiders.  We work hard to make the raid environment better for you all.  The goals of these changes is to improve the raid environment for the majority of the players.  If we've made a mistake, we are open to logically laid-out arguments against what we are implementing.  Bring on the discussion!