State of the Raid 2015

[Tourettsbear]

Mort, stop being annoying. The point is asking them to get enchanted with emphasis on the rules. 

 

A bit of gold is what ever they can afford, if that number is 0 then that number is 0.. The point is to get enchanted..

 

They may not be removed from the raid, but they could be penalized in other ways.

 

 

You've been asked to stop being annoying numerous times since your Action plan, yet you continue to tread that line.. Cut it out.

[jesseh]

i should be properly enchanted besides my OH mostly because im waiting on a better dagger other then that idk what i'd be missing

[Roqwell]

I don't think Mort was being too annoying, just asking a question... though the last comment seemed unnecessary and the first was a bit off. Overall, 1/3.. not terrible.

 

Mort, if I can, I want to tell you something: why people are finding you annoying... because I feel like you don't understand why or believe it's something else.

 

It isn't some bias against you. That's gone. If I'm wrong and there are instances recently where you've been picked at by people then feel free to tell me, but as far as I've seen recently you are not a scapegoat through any means other than when you bring it upon yourself. Frequently, whenever someone is screwing up or doing something wrong and they don't get sat you redirect the attention back at yourself for a pity party saying something like:

 

"if that was me i would be kicked from guild"

 

No. No you would not. Because there is no bias against you anymore. It's gone. If you did the same thing they did you would get treated the same at this point and your constant need to be pitied is getting on a lot of people's nerves. Tonight, for example, Pikachu died to the trains a lot and you redirected the attention to yourself saying if you were doing that you'd be kicked. Yet, the rest of the night you actually became just as terrible as Pikachu at dodging trains and..... what happened? Were you sat? Kicked from guild? Yelled at? No. You got the same treatment Pikachu did. Quite frankly, the more you do this -- the trying to direct attention back to yourself and pretend like you're still a bullied nerd in high school -- the more likely it will happen again.

 

Something called "self-fulfilling prophecy".

 

If you keep acting like you're a victim, keep trying to repeat over and over again how mistreated you are, keep redirecting the attention of another person failing to try and get pity.. eventually what you keep saying is happening will actually happen. Keep acting like a victim, you'll be a victim. People will get so fed up with your pessimistic, self-pitying attitude that they'll lash out at you for it and you don't stop. People tell you to stop but you refuse to admit you are anything but a victim like tonight when TBear said "yeah sure, you'd be kicked" ONLY to tell you what you wanted to hear and not because it was the truth. It was a lie.

 

Honestly... TBear is showing you what will inevitably happen although he is not lashing out intensely. TBear is not a person that could even have bias. He was not here in the past, he's still decently new, so he has no real idea about how you were before your return and furthermore has made clear efforts beforehand to disregard what he's been told and give you a new start. But now he is a bit snippy with you and sometimes can't stand you (not trying to call you out TBear, just trying to make a point). People are going to start turning on you not because of the past or any bias but because you won't stop trying to get pity and won't stop complaining about mistreatment that doesn't exist anymore. This is why people find you annoying and it needs to stop. It needs to stop when people tell you to and it needs to stop now because it's clear the officers have given you warnings and you aren't heeding them.

 

You are no longer a victim, you act like one. Just let the past go and move on because at this point you're only making a fairly neutral situation for yourself bad.

 

Okay?

Edited February 19, 2015 by Roqwell

[Tourettsbear]

I don't think Mort was being too annoying, just asking a question... though the last comment seemed unnecessary and the first was a bit off. Overall, 1/3.. not terrible.

 

Mort, if I can, I want to tell you something: why people are finding you annoying... because I feel like you don't understand why or believe it's something else.

 

It isn't some bias against you. That's gone. If I'm wrong and there are instances recently where you've been picked at by people then feel free to tell me, but as far as I've seen recently you are not a scapegoat through any means other than when you bring it upon yourself. Frequently, whenever someone is screwing up or doing something wrong and they don't get sat you redirect the attention back at yourself for a pity party saying something like:

 

"if that was me i would be kicked from guild"

 

No. No you would not. Because there is no bias against you anymore. It's gone. If you did the same thing they did you would get treated the same at this point and your constant need to be pitied is getting on a lot of people's nerves. Tonight, for example, Pikachu died to the trains a lot and you redirected the attention to yourself saying if you were doing that you'd be kicked. Yet, the rest of the night you actually became just as terrible as Pikachu at dodging trains and..... what happened? Were you sat? Kicked from guild? Yelled at? No. You got the same treatment Pikachu did. Quite frankly, the more you do this -- the trying to direct attention back to yourself and pretend like you're still a bullied nerd in high school -- the more likely it will happen again.

 

Something called "self-fulfilling prophecy".

 

If you keep acting like you're a victim, keep trying to repeat over and over again how mistreated you are, keep redirecting the attention of another person failing to try and get pity.. eventually what you keep saying is happening will actually happen. Keep acting like a victim, you'll be a victim. People will get so fed up with your pessimistic, self-pitying attitude that they'll lash out at you for it and you don't stop. People tell you to stop but you refuse to admit you are anything but a victim like tonight when TBear said "yeah sure, you'd be kicked" ONLY to tell you what you wanted to hear and not because it was the truth. It was a lie.

 

Honestly... TBear is showing you what will inevitably happen although he is not lashing out intensely. TBear is not a person that could even have bias. He was not here in the past, he's still decently new, so he has no real idea about how you were before your return and furthermore has made clear efforts beforehand to disregard what he's been told and give you a new start. But now he is a bit snippy with you and sometimes can't stand you (not trying to call you out TBear, just trying to make a point). People are going to start turning on you not because of the past or any bias but because you won't stop trying to get pity and won't stop complaining about mistreatment that doesn't exist anymore. This is why people find you annoying and it needs to stop. It needs to stop when people tell you to and it needs to stop now because it's clear the officers have given you warnings and you aren't heeding them.

 

You are no longer a victim, you act like one. Just let the past go and move on because at this point you're only making a fairly neutral situation for yourself bad.

 

Okay?

 

Roqwell for Prime Minister 2016.

[Lyntha]

 

Roqwell for Prime Minister 2016.

 

 

Spotted the non-american

[Ftfk]

Nailed it.

[Mythosaur]

Hah Canada.

[jesseh]

 

 

Roqwell for Prime Minister 2016.

 

 

Spotted the non-american

 

thats the joke 

[Tourettsbear]

I was going to make a new topic but decided to tack on to this one instead. I have some question's.

 

1) Can we be quicker to sit people who are under performing, or inadequately performing on progression bosses? Currently we waste almost half of the raid night wiping and wiping, only to make it to break.. Then we wipe 3-4 more times before we decide to sit people who fall into this category. I understand the logic that this is a casual guild raid, but if the people who aren't performing aren't willing or able to step up to a decent level then why should the other 16-18 people suffer? (Iron Maidens is an example of this). I mean, it kind of falls under rule 2 of this post.. Stop wasting others time. 

 

2) The rules stated in this post are piss-poorly being followed. People are constantly late without an EP minus.. Yet, people who face pull are being charged ep.. Is this going to be addressed?

 

3) Is the order of progression going to be Iron maidens> Blast Furnace? or Iron maidens > M-Twins? I think skipping blast furnace for now might be better.. Some of the Mythic bosses are much easier than Blast Furnace and Blackhand. But keep in mind, if people are performing inadequately we will have to sit people for that boss as well. 

 

The people who feel that my inadequate performance comment is directed at.. You're probably right.. It's not me saying you're playing poorly though. It's ATR's logs. If you'd like to know who you are go there and look to see what you did, and what you can do better. If you don't put any effort into being better..Why should you deserve to be there for a boss kill?

[kansir]

Yeah I'm with the guy above me. Most people in the raid know why we're wiping on progression bosses we just don't say anything. And the argument everyone has to see/learn the fight shouldn't really apply after attempt 7 maybe 10. Mistakes happen but at some point a players lack of ability shouldn't be qualified as a mistake anymore. I don't care about carrying someone for farm bosses cause at this point one or two shots and the boss is dead time to move on. 

[Tourettsbear]

Yeah I'm with the guy above me. Most people in the raid know why we're wiping on progression bosses we just don't say anything. And the argument everyone has to see/learn the fight shouldn't really apply after attempt 7 maybe 10. Mistakes happen but at some point a players lack of ability shouldn't be qualified as a mistake anymore. I don't care about carrying someone for farm bosses cause at this point one or two shots and the boss is dead time to move on. 

Exactly, who cares about farm bosses really. 

[kansir]

 

Yeah I'm with the guy above me. Most people in the raid know why we're wiping on progression bosses we just don't say anything. And the argument everyone has to see/learn the fight shouldn't really apply after attempt 7 maybe 10. Mistakes happen but at some point a players lack of ability shouldn't be qualified as a mistake anymore. I don't care about carrying someone for farm bosses cause at this point one or two shots and the boss is dead time to move on. 

Exactly, who cares about farm bosses really. 

 

I personally don't but I do have a trinket slot that cares lol

[Lyntha]

I was going to make a new topic but decided to tack on to this one instead. I have some question's.

 

1) Can we be quicker to sit people who are under performing, or inadequately performing on progression bosses? Currently we waste almost half of the raid night wiping and wiping, only to make it to break.. Then we wipe 3-4 more times before we decide to sit people who fall into this category. I understand the logic that this is a casual guild raid, but if the people who aren't performing aren't willing or able to step up to a decent level then why should the other 16-18 people suffer? (Iron Maidens is an example of this). I mean, it kind of falls under rule 2 of this post.. Stop wasting others time. 

 

2) The rules stated in this post are piss-poorly being followed. People are constantly late without an EP minus.. Yet, people who face pull are being charged ep.. Is this going to be addressed?

 

3) Is the order of progression going to be Iron maidens> Blast Furnace? or Iron maidens > M-Twins? I think skipping blast furnace for now might be better.. Some of the Mythic bosses are much easier than Blast Furnace and Blackhand. But keep in mind, if people are performing inadequately we will have to sit people for that boss as well. 

 

The people who feel that my inadequate performance comment is directed at.. You're probably right.. It's not me saying you're playing poorly though. It's ATR's logs. If you'd like to know who you are go there and look to see what you did, and what you can do better. If you don't put any effort into being better..Why should you deserve to be there for a boss kill?

 

1.)  Even high-end guilds need to adjust and get used to mechanics.  It's not fair to sit people as soon as they make a mistake.  There's a balance between letting people get used to mechanics, and sitting people to push progression.  You are also forgetting something very important as well - The more people that we kill a boss with, the more loot we get and the better geared our raid is.  We cannot just drop down to 15 for IM every week because gearing will then just be much slower.  Not only is there less loot variety, but there's less overall loot as well.  I clearly sat people last week during our first serious full night of attempts on IM as a kill was imminent and it was progression but I don't plan on sitting as many people for our second kill.

 

2.)  Immediately punishing people for an ass-pull is understandable, but we are being slower on punishing people for lateness until they can adjust.  After hearing feedback from a lot of people, we are also relaxing our definition of late a bit as well.  We are still starting EP ticks at 7:30 but we really just want people to be there by the time we get to the first boss.  If somebody can only be on at 7:35 every day, it doesn't really affect the raid too much.  Lastly, I am not sure if we need to actually give out EP minuses for people being late if they are already losing EP via missing EP ticks.  It's sort of double punishing somebody.  What are everyone's thoughts on this?

 

3.)  Not sure.  We want to gear our raid as quickly as possible via the path of least resistance and I'm not seeing much discussion on the difficulty of mythic HM bosses vs the harder heroic BRF bosses.  Do you have anything you can link me towards on this topic?  The only thing I have to go off of right now is wowprogress numbers.  In a single tier, if more guilds have downed Boss A than have downed Boss B, boss B is typically harder.  With Mythic Highmaul, it's a bit more difficult since they are basically like half-tiers.  Looking at boss kill stats, we can see that 8% of guilds have killed Heroic Blast Furnace, but 6% to 4% of guilds have killed Mythib Brackenspore, Butcher and Tectus.  Comparing them is difficult, so feel free to point me towards any discussion on the matter so we can be better informed.  We also have to consider that we can drop down to a 15-man or so slimmed down group for a blast furnace kill but we can't do so for mythic fights.

 

Regarding the last thing you said:  A lot of the people who are consistently lower performers aren't there due to lack of effort, it's due to lack of skill, which is something that they cannot control.  Drawing the line on this is difficult if somebody is trying their best.  We're not a hardcore guild.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Lyntha

[Tourettsbear]

 

1.)  Even high-end guilds need to adjust and get used to mechanics.  It's not fair to sit people as soon as they make a mistake.  There's a balance between letting people get used to mechanics, and sitting people to push progression.  You are also forgetting something very important as well - The more people that we kill a boss with, the more loot we get and the better geared our raid is.  We cannot just drop down to 15 for IM every week because gearing will then just be much slower.  Not only is there less loot variety, but there's less overall loot as well.  I clearly sat people last week during our first serious full night of attempts on IM as a kill was imminent and it was progression but I don't plan on sitting as many people for our second kill.

 

 

That's not what I said though. I'm saying on progression bosses when people are dieing to ridiculous things regularly.. Iron maidens is an example.. There were people messing up the 9 attempts on tuesday, and the 10+ attempts on Wednesday..Then we finally sat them..and we downed the boss. Your point about gear doesnt make any sense becuase I'm strictly talking progression bosses..not farm bosses where people can show up and get gear.  If people in the raid on our second grouping of attempts are causing us to wipe all night.. We should be quicker to sit them.

 

I'm going to take your response as no..but just so you know, its not just me requesting this..it's the 15-16 other people who think we're wasting a lot of time trying to carry people. But, I think its ridiculous that requesting people to perform better or be benched isnt a concept that the entire guild can be behind. 

 

 

2.)  Immediately punishing people for an ass-pull is understandable, but we are being slower on punishing people for lateness until they can adjust.  After hearing feedback from a lot of people, we are also relaxing our definition of late a bit as well.  We are still starting EP ticks at 7:30 but we really just want people to be there by the time we get to the first boss.  If somebody can only be on at 7:35 every day, it doesn't really affect the raid too much.  Lastly, I am not sure if we need to actually give out EP minuses for people being late if they are already losing EP via missing EP ticks.  It's sort of double punishing somebody.  What are everyone's thoughts on this?

 

I'm referring to the people who are late coming after break.. Those people are still getting EP with no minus.

 

 

 

 

3.)  Not sure.  We want to gear our raid as quickly as possible via the path of least resistance and I'm not seeing much discussion on the difficulty of mythic HM bosses vs the harder heroic BRF bosses.  Do you have anything you can link me towards on this topic?  The only thing I have to go off of right now is wowprogress numbers.  In a single tier, if more guilds have downed Boss A than have downed Boss B, boss B is typically harder.  With Mythic Highmaul, it's a bit more difficult since they are basically like half-tiers.  Looking at boss kill stats, we can see that 8% of guilds have killed Heroic Blast Furnace, but 6% to 4% of guilds have killed Mythib Brackenspore, Butcher and Tectus.  Comparing them is difficult, so feel free to point me towards any discussion on the matter so we can be better informed.  We also have to consider that we can drop down to a 15-man or so slimmed down group for a blast furnace kill but we can't do so for mythic fights.

 

Regarding the last thing you said:  A lot of the people who are consistently lower performers aren't there due to lack of effort, it's due to lack of skill, which is something that they cannot control.  Drawing the line on this is difficult if somebody is trying their best.  We're not a hardcore guild.

 

 

If we slim down to 15 people...that is EXACTLY what im suggesting in point number 1 which you said no to? 

 

As for my statement.. Lack of effort=lack of skill... I'm not asking for hard core numbers. I am how-ever asking that if youre going to raid on a class...you should probably know how to play that class. We have a lot of tools for people to be better.. WA, Guides, simc, hell just ask and I'll do most of this homework for anyone. But not doing anything to be better is stupid.

[Mythosaur]

Anyone can learn a spec or class, they will not perform with 100% effectiveness, but 80% is not out of the question. There are people here who can help, look for WA rotation helpers, read up on your class switch specs.

 

Arma is a good example of this, he knew 2H frost was garbage time so he dedicated himself to learning Unholy. Everyone is capable of the same thing. You dont need to spend all week on it, but an extra hour or two per week should be acceptable. Learning during raid is not that effective (see me on IM last week). Any skill you currently have can always be improved upon, just ask for help, someone else in the guild will be more than happy to assist you if you need it.

 

As for bosses I think clearing all bosses we have downed, including IM, then doing a few Mythic bosses would be good.

 

 We have a lot of tools for people to be better.. WA, Guides, simc, hell just ask and I'll do most of this homework for anyone. But not doing anything to be better is stupid.

 

Truth

[Lyntha]

 

 

1.)  Even high-end guilds need to adjust and get used to mechanics.  It's not fair to sit people as soon as they make a mistake.  There's a balance between letting people get used to mechanics, and sitting people to push progression.  You are also forgetting something very important as well - The more people that we kill a boss with, the more loot we get and the better geared our raid is.  We cannot just drop down to 15 for IM every week because gearing will then just be much slower.  Not only is there less loot variety, but there's less overall loot as well.  I clearly sat people last week during our first serious full night of attempts on IM as a kill was imminent and it was progression but I don't plan on sitting as many people for our second kill.

 

 

That's not what I said though. I'm saying on progression bosses when people are dieing to ridiculous things regularly.. Iron maidens is an example.. There were people messing up the 9 attempts on tuesday, and the 10+ attempts on Wednesday..Then we finally sat them..and we downed the boss. Your point about gear doesnt make any sense becuase I'm strictly talking progression bosses..not farm bosses where people can show up and get gear.  If people in the raid on our second grouping of attempts are causing us to wipe all night.. We should be quicker to sit them.

 

I'm going to take your response as no..but just so you know, its not just me requesting this..it's the 15-16 other people who think we're wasting a lot of time trying to carry people. But, I think its ridiculous that requesting people to perform better or be benched isnt a concept that the entire guild can be behind. 

 

Did you take a look at the logs?  We sat the following people for the kill:

 

Phobia

Shinjung

Mythosaur

Cabelockjr

Crimsontrail

Lihuai

Imcute

 

 

Here's that list again, with their average uptime excluding events after 3 deaths (Typically when a wipe is called);

 

 

Phobia - 83%

Shinjung - 93%

Mythosaur - 95.5%

Cabelockjr - 100%

Crimsontrail - 100%

Lihuai - 100%

Imcute - 100%

 

 

4 of these players were making pretty much no mistakes and 2 of the other 3 were doing very well.  Bash was the only person doing lower damage and also making mistakes.  Bash is also just getting back into raiding and gearing up and learning how to play boomkin effectively.  Here's some people's uptime pre-3 deaths excluding deaths who stayed in:

 

Kaelthas - 77%

Roqwell - 80.5%

Ansky - 87.2%

Pikachu - 88.5%

Jlogg - 89.5%

Muln - 90.6%

Mokou - 97.1%

Mirus - 98.2%

 

All of those players had early deaths.  Some of them had multiple early deaths.  They didn't get sat, because I wanted to optimize for performance on a particularly unique boss where being able to cast while moving and being able to multi-dot/cleave was super important.  Your exact words were "I'm saying on progression bosses when people are dieing to ridiculous things regularly.. Iron maidens is an example.. There were people messing up the 9 attempts on tuesday, and the 10+ attempts on Wednesday..Then we finally sat them..and we downed the boss".  We did not down the boss when we sat people who were making mistakes.  We downed the boss when we sat enough lower-performing people to give us a much greater margin for error.  As such, I'm not sure what you are advocating here.  What I did worked, in that unique situation.

 

 

 

 

 

2.)  Immediately punishing people for an ass-pull is understandable, but we are being slower on punishing people for lateness until they can adjust.  After hearing feedback from a lot of people, we are also relaxing our definition of late a bit as well.  We are still starting EP ticks at 7:30 but we really just want people to be there by the time we get to the first boss.  If somebody can only be on at 7:35 every day, it doesn't really affect the raid too much.  Lastly, I am not sure if we need to actually give out EP minuses for people being late if they are already losing EP via missing EP ticks.  It's sort of double punishing somebody.  What are everyone's thoughts on this?

 

I'm referring to the people who are late coming after break.. Those people are still getting EP with no minus.

 

We have removed people from raid for being absent for readychecks post-break.  We kicked cabel from the group last week for it during IM attempts.  I cannot remember if we also docked him EP but it's not like it's getting ignored.

 

 

 

 

 

3.)  Not sure.  We want to gear our raid as quickly as possible via the path of least resistance and I'm not seeing much discussion on the difficulty of mythic HM bosses vs the harder heroic BRF bosses.  Do you have anything you can link me towards on this topic?  The only thing I have to go off of right now is wowprogress numbers.  In a single tier, if more guilds have downed Boss A than have downed Boss B, boss B is typically harder.  With Mythic Highmaul, it's a bit more difficult since they are basically like half-tiers.  Looking at boss kill stats, we can see that 8% of guilds have killed Heroic Blast Furnace, but 6% to 4% of guilds have killed Mythib Brackenspore, Butcher and Tectus.  Comparing them is difficult, so feel free to point me towards any discussion on the matter so we can be better informed.  We also have to consider that we can drop down to a 15-man or so slimmed down group for a blast furnace kill but we can't do so for mythic fights.

 

Regarding the last thing you said:  A lot of the people who are consistently lower performers aren't there due to lack of effort, it's due to lack of skill, which is something that they cannot control.  Drawing the line on this is difficult if somebody is trying their best.  We're not a hardcore guild.

 

 

If we slim down to 15 people...that is EXACTLY what im suggesting in point number 1 which you said no to? 

 

As for my statement.. Lack of effort=lack of skill... I'm not asking for hard core numbers. I am how-ever asking that if youre going to raid on a class...you should probably know how to play that class. We have a lot of tools for people to be better.. WA, Guides, simc, hell just ask and I'll do most of this homework for anyone. But not doing anything to be better is stupid.

 

 

That's what I'm saying.  On paper, Blast Furnace MIGHT be harder than Mythic Tectus/Butcher/Brackenspore.  But how hard is an optimized 15-man Blast Furnace fight versus a not-quite-as-optimized 20-man Mythic Butcher/Brackenspore/Tectus fight?  I'd say they are about even.  If so, the question comes down to other benefits.  Do we want more tier bonuses for example?  If so, we go for Blast furnace.  I want to see some discussion on this.

 

Regarding your statement, Lack of effort DOES NOT equal lack of skill.  Are you going to argue that anybody in our guild could raid in Method or be a world top PVP player if they just tried hard enough?  That's not how it works.

 

Some people are just plain better at the game than others.  Some people have hard skill caps.  Our own GM is an older guy who has a lower skill cap at the game.  He does what he can and works to improve his gameplay as much as he can.  No matter how much he tries, he will never perform at the same level as me and jim when it comes to shadow-priesting.  He can work to get close, but I honestly believe that.  I don't know about you, but I joined this guild to have fun in this game, and I will raid with Gump over some asshole who is better at the game 100% of the time.  Gump also doesn't get offended when he's asked to sit on harder fights or asked to improve.  He truly gives it his all.  Would you prefer that we handle this situation differently?  If so, how?

Edited March 9, 2015 by Lyntha

[Tourettsbear]

lower performance on a boss falls under mistakes..It means there is issues somewhere. 

[Lyntha]

That's not always the case.

 

Ghost has been tanking for a while and changed to DPS for the betterment of the raid and was trying to learn a new spec while adjusting to a new fight AND a new role.  His DPS gear is also out of date since he has tanking for a while and prioritizing upgrades with that in mind.

 

Bash was undergeared and still getting used to playing boomkin.  That excuses the performance (Or at least explains it, because bash is normally a great player) but doesn't excuse the deaths.

 

Cabel plays destro, which isn't great on IM.  Locks period aren't oustanding on IM, but destro is the worst by far on it.  Destro as a spec is otherwise plenty good enough to play as your main spec, but it's just very poor on this fight.

 

Im honestly not sure why we sat Imcute because he wasn't doing awful, but his spec is also not that great on IM.  Mastric's native spec towers over the other two locks' specs on this fight.

 

Some people just got sat because of performance issues that weren't related to long-term average performance issues.

[Tourettsbear]

Also, I never said gump.. But since you've mentioned him.. I don't think you're giving him enough credit.. i think he can perform much better..Maybe not Methods level of play like you said. But I don't think it's too much for the guild to ask our raider's to perform better.  I think if you help Gump, he will be stronger. 

 

I think you dance around question's in a weird way. So are you saying that we would have downed Iron Maidens in the same amount of attempts regardless of dropping people ? (we wouldnt have) the warcraft log data...doesn't imply that at all...My question is "Can we sit people who aren't performing quicker" .. Is your answer really no to this?

 

Also, are you kidding me? If you put 0 effort towards being better you're not going to get better, which means you can't become skilled.. Some people are just skilled at things, other people have to work hard to get there.. But they can get there  it may just take a little help.. But if you make a WA to see when you can pop a trinket so you use it more efficiently is becoming more skilled..

[Lyntha]

I feel like I am constantly just explaining my actions to people at this point when they are nearly always well thought-out, and it's getting tiring.

 

I'm not saying that I'm always right.  Far from it.  I make plenty of mistakes and admit them.  I also welcome constructive criticism at any time as well.  If I do something though, I typically do it for a good reason that made sense at the time.

[Tourettsbear]

That's not always the case.

 

Ghost has been tanking for a while and changed to DPS for the betterment of the raid and was trying to learn a new spec while adjusting to a new fight AND a new role.  His DPS gear is also out of date since he has tanking for a while and prioritizing upgrades with that in mind.

 

Bash was undergeared and still getting used to playing boomkin.  That excuses the performance (Or at least explains it, because bash is normally a great player) but doesn't excuse the deaths.

 

Cabel plays destro, which isn't great on IM.  Locks period aren't oustanding on IM, but destro is the worst by far on it.  Destro as a spec is otherwise plenty good enough to play as your main spec, but it's just very poor on this fight.

 

Im honestly not sure why we sat Imcute because he wasn't doing awful, but his spec is also not that great on IM.  Mastric's native spec towers over the other two locks' specs on this fight.

 

Some people just got sat because of performance issues that weren't related to long-term average performance issues.

Those are still issues? It's just not 100% there fault.. It is still an issue though? 

I feel like I am constantly just explaining my actions to people at this point when they are nearly always well thought-out, and it's getting tiring.

 

I'm not saying that I'm always right.  Far from it.  I make plenty of mistakes and admit them.  I also welcome constructive criticism at any time as well.  If I do something though, I typically do it for a good reason that made sense at the time.

Your throwing numbers out there...that don't match with the numbers i'm looking at..One of isn't looking at accurate information.. 

[Lyntha]

Also, I never said gump.. But since you've mentioned him.. I don't think you're giving him enough credit.. i think he can perform much better..Maybe not Methods level of play like you said. But I don't think it's too much for the guild to ask our raider's to perform better.  I think if you help Gump, he will be stronger. 

 

I think you dance around question's in a weird way. So are you saying that we would have downed Iron Maidens in the same amount of attempts regardless of dropping people ? (we wouldnt have) the warcraft log data...doesn't imply that at all...My question is "Can we sit people who aren't performing quicker" .. Is your answer really no to this?

 

Also, are you kidding me? If you put 0 effort towards being better you're not going to get better, which means you can't become skilled.. Some people are just skilled at things, other people have to work hard to get there.. But they can get there  it may just take a little help.. But if you make a WA to see when you can pop a trinket so you use it more efficiently is becoming more skilled..

 

I have played with gump a long time and know him well.  He brings his A-game every raid.  He gives it his all.  His A-game is just different than my A-game or Jim's A-game.  That doesn't make him any less valuable to the guild.  We each bring something to the table and judging somebody purely on their performance isn't what ATR is about.

 

I'm saying that we didn't drop people on IM who were just making constant mistakes.  No one person died early every attempt.  It's a very long fight with many opportunities for mistakes and a wide range of people made mistakes.  As such, other than edge cases (Edgeworth and Bash were doing especially poor), it was more effective to optimize the group for performance and give us a greater margin for error.  Which is what I did.  And it worked.  Could we have sat people earlier?  Sure.  Should we have?  That's debatable.  I'm just explaining why I made the choices I made.

 

Obviously, the more effort you put towards a game, the better you will become.  But some people just have skill limits, man.  Some people learn at different rates as well.  Some guy can start awful at a game but become very good with very little effort.  Some other person can start being good at a game but not improve much despite trying.  Everyone's different.

Here's the numbers I'm using:

 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/CdYKA1cfDhkrvN6R#boss=1695&wipes=1&type=deaths&cutoff=3

 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/CdYKA1cfDhkrvN6R#boss=1695&wipes=1&type=damage-done&cutoff=3

 

That's not always the case.

 

Ghost has been tanking for a while and changed to DPS for the betterment of the raid and was trying to learn a new spec while adjusting to a new fight AND a new role.  His DPS gear is also out of date since he has tanking for a while and prioritizing upgrades with that in mind.

 

Bash was undergeared and still getting used to playing boomkin.  That excuses the performance (Or at least explains it, because bash is normally a great player) but doesn't excuse the deaths.

 

Cabel plays destro, which isn't great on IM.  Locks period aren't oustanding on IM, but destro is the worst by far on it.  Destro as a spec is otherwise plenty good enough to play as your main spec, but it's just very poor on this fight.

 

Im honestly not sure why we sat Imcute because he wasn't doing awful, but his spec is also not that great on IM.  Mastric's native spec towers over the other two locks' specs on this fight.

 

Some people just got sat because of performance issues that weren't related to long-term average performance issues.

Those are still issues? It's just not 100% there fault.. It is still an issue though?  

 

Sure it is.  Which is why they were sat.

[Tourettsbear]

so you're agreeing with me.. They were sat due to issuse?

 

Now..If there are issues..can we be quicker to sit people? 

[Lyntha]

Do you want to raid in a guild where you make 2 or 3 mistakes on a boss and just get sat?  Do you want to raid in a guild where we are constantly swapping people in and out to try to optimize the raid?  This isn't a hypothetical question, and I'm sure that some people in our guild want that environment.

 

When I make decisions, I try to make everyone happy.  There's a balance between being hardcore and optimizing our group as much as possible versus giving people all the leniency in the world and being completely casual.  Where we fall in between these two positions is up for debate, but we certainly fall into the middle between these.  We had less than 20 attempts on a new boss with many new mechanics before I sat a ton of people and we got the kill.  How much more hardcore can you get before you start to adopt a seriously hardcore stance on raiding?

[Tourettsbear]

I mean, its a yes or no question though.. Can you please answer.

 

I've said once before that I'm not asking for it to be 2-3, I don't think a static number should be placed..but I think if we know we can down the boss after 10 wipes. if we drop people not up to par. Rather than getting 8 more wipes worth of data THEN benching people.. The question isnt "Can we be more hardcore" I'm asking if we can make these decisions faster?