State of the Raid 2015

[kansir]

On progression nights why not make 10pm (or any other time) the cut off point. Still award EPGP to those get sat. But starting at 10 or 9:50 people who have had low performance or who aren't optimal for the boss get sat.

[Tourettsbear]

On progression nights why not make 10pm (or any other time) the cut off point. Still award EPGP to those get sat. But starting at 10 or 9:50 people who have had low performance or who aren't optimal for the boss get sat.

That's a good suggestion..But honsetly, I don't think it needs to be that cut and dry.. Like Iron Maidens is the perfect example.

 

End of night Tuesday we knew who should probably be sat.. But Wed fresh day.. 4 or 5 attempts if the performance isnt better we sit.

[Lyntha]

Making those decisions faster IS being hardcore.  "Making decisions faster" in your words is really just sitting people sooner before giving them a chance to improve.  More hardcore.  It's also going to give the officers less aggregate data to work with, causing us to make decisions based on a much smaller time window where individual actions are much more apparent.  More hardcore.  It's also setting a precedent where we are sitting as many people as possible, causing less people to get loot and slowing down raid gearing just to get a boss kill sooner.  More hardcore.

 

The question I hear you asking is "Can we be more hardcore?"

 

My answer is "No".  Not with our current raid and our current mentality.  Us dropping seven people after less than 20 attempts on a new boss is WAY more hardcore than this guild usually is.  Asking us to be more hardcore than that is a huge culture shock that I don't think the guild as a whole wants.  If people want to speak up and tell me that my understanding of what the guild wants is wrong, so be it.

On progression nights why not make 10pm (or any other time) the cut off point. Still award EPGP to those get sat. But starting at 10 or 9:50 people who have had low performance or who aren't optimal for the boss get sat.

 

Every boss is different.  As of now, we don't start optimizing until a kill is imminent and we are sure that individuals are holding us back and don't seem to be improving.  Setting a timeframe on this is unrealistic and not helpful.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Lyntha

[Varibash]

1st: I sat myself on IM, I am very aware of my place in the raid and if my mistakes are making things more difficult, I will take action against myself. I am working on improving my play on a spec I have NEVER played before, while improvement is happening, I am not up to the caliber I should be, so until that time, I will ALWAYS be the first to volunteer to sit if the group needs to maximize for a progression kill. 

 

2nd: My answer is maybe. We can explore options to possibly have a 3 strikes rule or something similar. Say a person dies 3 times in a row to the exact same mechanic, then yes, we can sit that person. It's an idea to explore further, but ultimately, I will leave the decision on how we proceed with such a rule to FTFK and Lyntha, at this time, this is their raid group and leading it how they want to lead it is important. 

 

3rd: as far as progression goes, no matter what route we take, there will always be someone that is unhappy with it and would rather focus on something else. I think our end game should be to always be working on "new" content that the team has never seen before to help waive off stagnation. Most people seem happy as long we we get "ahead of the curve" achievement every tier. Something to discuss after raid with those that hang around.

[Tourettsbear]

It's not at all "can we be more hardcore though"? If we're currently sitting people after 4 extra attempts..what I'm asking is "Can we not make 4 extra attempts" and can we sit them now.

 

Bash, You are a solid example.. I wish everyone under similar circumstances as you should follow the same lead.

It's just interesting because you had myself, Kansir, Nerita.... and multiple people bring it up..Yet you still look at it as being more hardcore.. I look at is as not wasting time. With this current method, and logic, you're wasting time.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Tourettsbear

[Ftfk]

Did an awful lot of reading here to get caught up.

 

What I am for:

Sitting people who cannot perform mechanics constantly

Why? - We can't consistently battle rez the same people. Battle rez's need to be saved for odd bits of misfortune, not because someone cannot avoid avoidable damage regularly. When people die repeatedly, it is essentially we are fighting a man down. With flex, I think that lowering raid size in this situation makes sense since we are already having to cope with the loss.

 

What I am against:

Sitting people for bad dps

Why? - I think that is a sticky slope to travel. There a lot of factors that are difficult to take into account. Maybe the person is doing a specific mechanic for us (imperitor branded mages for instance). Maybe they have a hardware issue. Maybe they are trying a new spec. Maybe they are behind gear wise, missing tier bonus, or missing critical trinket or something.

When I suggest people get sat for dps issues, I am looking for outliers - people that are doing 7-10k dps behind where the average of our raid is.

Exceptions to this: If we are hitting an enrage timer, falling behind on adds, or not meeting DPS checks. Then I think it is completely necessary to sit people

 

Bottom line:

A dead DPS is usually going to do less overall damage to the boss than a player who stays alive the whole time and does sub-optimal dps.

[Roqwell]

A lot of reading indeed.... I do agree with Jim's summary of what's been said.

 

Sitting people who constantly mess up on mechanics is definitely good since a 1k DPS is better than a dead DPS. Also agreeing with the bad DPS until absolutely necessary (enrage timer hit frequently) particularly because the game is imbalanced. Some classes just suck. Plain suck no matter which spec you are and no amount of research or effort or skill will make that class any better and it feels really sour to sit someone for something they can't even attempt to control. But if we need to sit them and do down the boss... should just be looked at as the rest of the raid gearing up to hopefully carry that unfortunate soul next week that has no control.

 

Honestly, I wasn't even bothered by the IM attempts or found any necessity to sit people faster. If I recall right there was a flat warning about possibly sitting and then a few attempts, which is fair. Warning people and then giving them a chance to improve is good. To warn then sit the very next attempt is a bit hasty and doesn't give them a chance (also unfair considering some attempts might just be really bad all around and one individual shouldn't be held accountable for the entire poor attempt). Though, giving them five or six or more attempts to improve is beyond generous and just excessive. But didn't really feel like that on IM.

 

The only time I ever felt frustrated that we weren't sitting people sooner was on the Train Fucker.

 

Particularly because of several people who constantly kept getting hit by the trains. Like... three attempts in a row they took a train to the face and we were really struggling because of the consistently failed mechanics. It was obvious they were failing. Yet, ten attempts later there is finally warning (not actual sitting) that people will be sat. Now I don't suggest being more 'hardcore' about it and having a firm ruling of "3 strikes" or something because each instance is different and a player could improve and regress like a roller coaster on a fight making it a difficult call... but in instances where it is painfully obvious someone is failing constantly then maybe it just isn't their night and maybe they should do something else.

 

Like I said.. I honestly found no problems with needing to sit people faster on IM. The mistakes we're pretty widespread and there were very few people who were somewhat constantly slowing the raid progression, but in instances like with Douchey McTrain where it's obvious I don't think it's unreasonable to sit a person - who is probably aware of their faults already - for consistently failing a mechanic.

 

I'm sure everyone would love to have the entire raid in on a kill. I would. But it is necessary sometimes to sit people so 15 people can get a kill and get loot instead of 20 people going to sleep without any purple pixels on the screen. I understand the hesitance on wanting to keep everyone in on a kill but I also feel like sometimes there is too much hesitance and it honestly baffled me with Shitting Trains-A-Lot how long we waited to sit people.