Could we start skipping the first 6 bosses is Hellfire?

[Roqwell]

Even though I'm not raiding most days because of my obligations to the theatre department, it still really irks me to hear from people that we still aren't skipping the first few bosses. At this point, there is no reason other than to waste time to continue doing the first six heroic bosses. Asked Imcute to grab a little information for me while I was at rehearsal and this is the breakdown for the loot last night regarding those bosses:

 

6 MS | 7 Minor Upgrade | 4 OS | 6 D/E

 

Keeping in mind, these are raw statistics and don't take into account whether those that rolled MS were main raiders or fairly new individuals. Regardless, less than 1/3 of the loot isn't going straight to Main Spec, thus isn't really needed or in almost half the case is thrown to OS or D/E'd.

 

The main repeated reason as to why we keep doing these bosses is: "people still need tier."

 

Well..... no..... no actually they really don't. I inspected everyone in raid last night near the end there and this is what I concluded as the gear everyone is sitting at.

 

Helm Token off Kormok:

No Helm: Summa.

No Helm but has their 4pc: Imcute, Nerita, Yarn.

Normal Helm: Buzziba.

Everyone else has the heroic helm or greater (i.e. warforged, socket, etc.).

 

Legs Token off Gorefiend:

Nothing: Mokou.

Normal Pants: Mort, Yarn

Everyone else has the heroic legs or greater (i.e. warforged, socket, etc.).

 

I didn't even ask most of these individuals whether or not they even want the tier piece. I know Imcute would be okay with it, but doesn't need it, and would rather skip bosses like me.

 

Of our entire raid, those are the only individuals lacking the heroic tier pieces. I don't mean to be rude or ignore any need they may have, but these are not sufficient enough numbers to support spending an hour and a half to maybe get them their tier. Not to mention this causes us to repeat bosses we've seen dead dozens of time, leading to burnout a lot quicker, leading to wiping on farm content because people are burned out and bored, leading to frustration and anger, leading to more wipes, leading to people leaving or taking breaks for long periods, leading to us having to call raiding until Legion.

 

To be honest, I don't want to call break until Legion just yet. But I do want to skip these six bosses because it is painful for me to even hear word that you guys are killing them. Loot is good, but progression is better, and progression leads to more loot the majority of the raid would actually need. We still have H Manno and H Archi. We've only killed H Xhul once (maybe twice I don't remember us being successful a second time).

 

There is not enough evidence to support wasting time on these bosses anymore.

 

For the love of god, can we please start skipping them.

[Pìkachu]

pls based officers one day we will kill heroicmonde

[Mastric]

Skip first six, stuck on Soccermom untill Roq gets on

 

Outside of that I've been picking on the claims of lack of Conq for a while now, I've got 3 Heroic Leggings, too much Conq!

Edited September 23, 2015 by Mastric

[Varibash]

I will have people upset if we skip, and I will have people upset if we don't skip.... so where do we draw the line? 

 

Are we just supposed to tell the people still needing gear off of those 6 bosses "hey thanks for helping everyone else get the gear they need, but we aren't going to do them anymore, so too bad.. you can still pug them though..."

 

idk, these decisions, though seemingly simple enough will have backlash whatever way we choose....

[Mythosaur]

I agree with Roqwell, the 3 or so people who still need gear, some of which are just now coming back to us or are new (Summa excluded obviously). We do NOT need to do the first 6, at all, if we have less than 5 people who need 1 or two pieces of gear. We have plenty to kill on heroic we have never dealt with, we can easily kill Zhul and Mannorath if we can just get to them.

 

I was for skipping this week and I will be for skipping next week. No different than when we abandoned wings in BRF, some people still needed gear, but over all we were

wasting time.

 

This is made even worse by the massive amount of time we are wasting between bosses, last night we had over a full hour of downtime, not counting our break, that shit is unacceptable.

[Lyntha]

Last week we had a ton of conq drop off of bosses (Finally).  A few bosses dropped multiple conq pieces.  It was very helpful and there's a big change from last week to this week.  We are probably ready to start skipping the first 6 bosses or at least only do them once every 2-3 weeks.

[Roqwell]

I will have people upset if we skip, and I will have people upset if we don't skip.... so where do we draw the line? 

 

Are we just supposed to tell the people still needing gear off of those 6 bosses "hey thanks for helping everyone else get the gear they need, but we aren't going to do them anymore, so too bad.. you can still pug them though..."

 

idk, these decisions, though seemingly simple enough will have backlash whatever way we choose....

 

Of course no matter the decision there will always be people upset. Some will be happy, others won't, but in these situations you can't just listen to the loudest complainer or sit back with your hands up saying both sides are going to be unhappy one way or another.

 

Look at this as percentages (as we would during an in-raid vote most days). The list I compiled has 7/19. Could even take off Imcute from that since he wants to skip... also removing Nerita and Yarn cause they have their 4pc which is why we've been so persistent about doing these bosses. That's down to 4/19. Take off those that have tier, just not the heroic version, and it drops down to 2/19 (10%) of our raid last night has any reason to do those earlier bosses.

 

If you want the softest complaints - as there will always be complaints - it's best to start appealing to the 90% rather than the 10%.

 

And there are better ways to construct that sentence telling the folks we won't be doing those bosses. In a less condescending manner that doesn't assume they only raid to get loot and don't care for the enjoyment of raiding, betterment of their character, or social niceties talking to others in the raid. You'd tell them, "sorry you didn't get the loot off these bosses, but unfortunately most of the raid has what we need and almost everyone feels mind-numbed killing these bosses to the point killing them over and over again is painful.. you have extra EPGP obviously, for not getting this loot, so when we kill new bosses, you are most likely to get that loot first if you want it."

 

I try to stay as objectively neutral as I can in any situation. It's honestly the worst path at times when you want to avoid backlash because you open yourselves up to both sides being upset with you. 

 

 

Skip first six, stuck on Soccermom untill Roq gets on

 

Actually, Mort has done amazingly on getting the ghosts down before I even turn around. If other ranged pitch in just a little bit, there shouldn't be much trouble getting the ghosts down outside of there being a fire problem (but Qwar is really good at controlling the robot). I do a lot of damage and pay attention to mechanics and as flattering is the jest is that I carry the raid, I alone don't carry the raid. It's a group effort on most weeks and on that particular week the raid comp was just lacking in ranged DPS. Almost any other DPS getting on besides me could have fixed the problem as well.

[Mastric]

Well Mott, Mandir, & Snooty help here. It was just bad that week with 5 ranged and 4 had Gift.

 

Swap Prime Minister Roqwell for our Officer lost in time [emoji14]

 

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk

Mort, Kansir, & Shooty* fun mobile key boards

Edited September 23, 2015 by Mastric

[Mythosaur]

Kansir isnt ranged.

[Lyntha]

Swap Prime Minister Roqwell for our Officer lost in time [emoji14]

 

Haha not lost in time.  See my attendance post.

 

Regarding the topic at hand.  We have to evaluate it as a progression thing roqwell.  Heroic Archimonde is very difficult and we could use all the help we can get from gear.  That means making sure that we are as prepared as possible and have the items that people need to perform at their best.  This mainly comprises of tier tokens, weapons and trinkets but just warforged/gemmed pieces of loot also help us out.  It makes more sense to farm the gear now when we have resets rather than to get Archimonde and think "oh man, we really need more gear.  I really wish that we had been farming gear for the past 8 weeks.  Well now we're 8 weeks behind!".

 

With that being said, I think that the number of people who still need gear from the first 6 bosses is low enough that we could probably only do them once every 2-3 weeks.  I think that dropping them completely is a bad idea given how difficult heroic archi is and considering that people do still need gear.

 

Edit:  I think the biggest problem is the length of time a lot of these bosses take.  Trash isn't too awful for the most part (Though there is a lot) but the bosses themselves take so freaking long, even the easy ones.  Blizz really needs to cut it down to something more manageable.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Lyntha

[Imcute]

To be fair, we don't have the people for mythic, so realistically we are going to be doing these bosses for a while. we might as well start skipping and doing something new and at least get some practice in on them. We are definitely going to be full clearing heroic soon and we will be able to go back and do all the bosses. In time the 2 or so people who don't have 4 piece will get it. If we have trouble with dps on Archi we can start farming them again. if we continue not skipping even if we get to him we'll only have like 20 minutes on him.

[Roqwell]

 

Regarding the topic at hand.  We have to evaluate it as a progression thing roqwell.  Heroic Archimonde is very difficult and we could use all the help we can get from gear.  That means making sure that we are as prepared as possible and have the items that people need to perform at their best.  This mainly comprises of tier tokens, weapons and trinkets but just warforged/gemmed pieces of loot also help us out.  It makes more sense to farm the gear now when we have resets rather than to get Archimonde and think "oh man, we really need more gear.  I really wish that we had been farming gear for the past 8 weeks.  Well now we're 8 weeks behind!".

 

 

I know we are ATR, and we often have wipes at 0.5% that could have been kills if any number of things happened... but I don't think that means we should kill our mental stamina repeating bosses to fix that by min/maxing our gear as much as possible (which is the vibe I get from your explanation that in order to kill H Arch we have to min/max to the extreme). What I worry about is, in the effort to repeating these bosses to get that excessively minor boost to the entire raid team, we start having people burnout faster, get bored from repeating bosses, that they drop out until Legion. Then we find new people, who need the gear from those bosses, and we repeat and repeat until everyone is so tired of those six stupid bosses we call all raiding until Legion.

 

I suppose after research and everything, it makes more sense on paper to keep farming those bosses. But on the other hand, if we spend all our time farming these bosses, we never even see the boss we are preparing for. I'd rather actually see the boss and die a lot and learn than to kill my enthusiasm preparing for something I'll never even look at. Even if H Archi is as tight as you say, unless you truly believe we can't kill him as our raid team is unless we have those tiny, insignificant upgrades for two people, doing these six bosses every week is just exhausting.

 

Doing them every 2-3 weeks is an option, yes, but also take into consideration you are then setting a date where most of the raid won't want to show up because we're doing those same six bosses no one wants to do anymore.

[Ftfk]

I am for skipping these bosses, I DE most of the gear anyway. My only suggestion would be that if/when we do decide to skip we give people at least 1 lockout notice.

[jesseh]

i think we should do it for another week or two because it would still help those who still need stuff. rng has not been kind this raid. but i also think  you're not wrong about skipping i think it gives us so leeway on wipes. but we should atleast get summa 4 piece before its fair to say were done with everything 

[Mortelinnor]

I would advise either not skipping every week or plan to go kill the first few mythic bosses. Rage was doing Heroic Archimonde for nearly a month, and that's probably what burnt people out. 

 

On another note, I still need my legs from Gorefiend because I missed most of the kills this summer and we were skipping it for the past 2 months.

[Roqwell]

i think we should do it for another week or two because it would still help those who still need stuff. rng has not been kind this raid. but i also think  you're not wrong about skipping i think it gives us so leeway on wipes. but we should atleast get summa 4 piece before its fair to say were done with everything 

 

No matter who it is, even if it were me, I wouldn't want an entire raid to be dragged into doing six bosses over and over again so 1-2 people can get their upgrade. No, RNG hasn't been nice to us as far as loot goes, but I can't (and many others can't) take the mental deterioration that comes from doing those bosses every.. single.. week. As Snug suggested, maybe in 2-3 weeks we can revisit them for loot people need... but seriously, if for the next two weeks we are still doing those six bosses I'll be glad theatre has dragged me away. As much as I love raiding, I hate wasting time and the small boost those bosses would give the raid as a whole aren't significant enough statistically to support bashing our heads on the keyboard in boredom for two hours.

 

 

I would advise either not skipping every week or plan to go kill the first few mythic bosses. Rage was doing Heroic Archimonde for nearly a month, and that's probably what burnt people out. 

 

On another note, I still need my legs from Gorefiend because I missed most of the kills this summer and we were skipping it for the past 2 months.

 

H Manno is within our grasp. H Arch will be a pain, for sure, but something we could actually work on. The only real trouble of Mythic is getting a good group of 20 players going into raid night. Either we're short or we have 20-22 people with a less than favorable comp and no particularly favorable substitutes if someone needs to be sat. I'm sure a lot of the raid would enjoy the challenge of Mythic, we just don't quite have the people for it at this time. But we are getting closer to that head count.

 

You have reg legs, just not heroic. It would be a boost to you but not as big of a boost as to someone without legs at all since most of the boost comes from the tier bonuses. Personally, when I'm considering numbers, just getting people the heroic version of what they already have is significantly less important than those that don't have them. I get that you want the heroic version, but that boost isn't very significant and not worth dying mentally on six bosses we could skip.

 

 

We're quickly getting to the point where this raid content becomes mentally draining because there is nothing new coming out until Legion. I'd like to prevent absolute drainage as much as possible, and that requires us to see new things we haven't encountered before. Such as H Archi, or the numbers grant us power, Mythic (though that is a stretch). If enough people are really so hardset in the 'no-child-left-behind' mentality we can revisit those six bosses every three weeks or something, but personally I'd really push for next week and the week after we skip the bosses. It doesn't make-or-break the raid having one or two people without their 4pc bonus and I think they can wait a bit (pug if they have the time, if not we'd still see those bosses again).

 

I don't mean to be so pushy.. we've just seen those bosses the majority of the raid needs nothing from so many times it mentally drains me when I'm not in the raid knowing you guys are killing them. The upgrades left are just so minute for most of the raid and it has become so draining.

 

I'd just really like to please see something new like we did tonight. H Manno dead then start attempting on H Archi.

[Imcute]

here is the thing though, currently I think only one regular raider needs 4 pc, and that does suck, but theoretically we could be stuck doing that boss for 3 more weeks to get that one piece of loot, it just doesn't justify letting the whole raid get burned out. On top of that we definitely would have downed mannaroth and gotten some attempts in on heroic archi this week had we skipped. At this point its really a question of do we do the same bosses over and over again, or try to do the last two bosses as is, which we are likely more than capable of with our current gear IF we skip. I could still definitely use the tier helm, but its not worth holding the whole raid back for it. no ones gear is so bad that it feels like we are carrying them in the meters, so we should definitely be pushing new bosses. It is just a huge waste of time for most of the raid. I personally really want to down heroic archi before too many people get burned out, I would love to do mythic as well but i'm not holding out for it or anything. I don't thing doing them every few weeks is a bad idea, but I'm willing to bet raid attendance is going to suffer those nights. once we get archi we can work on full clearing every week. 

[jesseh]

new plan first 3 bosses and fuck mort 

[jesseh]

i think its pretty bullshit that yarn or moku have 4 piece and have been around for like a month.. especially yarn getting the helm first day hes in off a roll like how is that fair? besides think about how much easier things will be with out healers keeping us up better? i think its better to get everyone atleast 4 piece then we can focus on progression more.  or officers need to give a better time frame vs. "oh this is the plan now". i understand that a fair amount of it is de'ed but rnjesus isn't kind. 

[kansir]

Not only have i finished my enhance set i've also finished my resto set thanks to doing these runs each week.  Hell I'm 1 trinket away from have an ele set!