how very unapologetic

[jesseh]

I'm going to free up some time for me to do other stuff on Wednesday's. part of it is Jellos Shot is shit at scheduling things or intentionally does things on raid nights to spite me. part of it is my "negative" attitude during the nights where we fail simple mechanics and expect to take the same attitude into mythic with minimal accountability for it. with all do respect I think we may need to re-evaluate the sate of things. as unfortunate as is it we can't be a "casual guild" and expect to do mythic to any real point before raid is called all together. that isnt me saying we need to be super hard core, just need to find a good way to progress at a good reasonable paste with what we have, but we cant progress being held back by a quarter of our raid team who dont understand the significance of doing mechanics, or understanding the same fights we've been doing for far too long. it was said multiple times we're really far ahead on dps, but were wiping because of mechanics. currently i dont think its worth the time and effort and most importantly frustration to do mythic with the state we're currently in. 

I'm going to direct this next part to bash so read if you want. maybe some of the things i say are uncalled for, you think it comes from a point different then it does. its more negative reinforcement then anything else. honestly i think we can do great things. we have done great things and i have set myself to certain expectations and if they arnt met then its frustrating. we all felt that frustration. i honestly believe that mythic fel reaver should have taken 7 attempts. 2 to learn that barrage hurts like a truck 2 to learn air phase and that p2 is the same as p1 and the kill and a 2 attempt buffer.  i always start with a high expectation for the things we can do. and its disappointing when we wipe to trash mechanics in heroic and think mythic is an option.  so yes maybe i'm a little snide at times, but mostly because i know we could had done better. 

to the rest of you. i will still be around to get people geared after scouts on Tuesdays. I wish all of you the best in mythic. i'll reconsider my stance of things in a few weeks, probably after the Holidays, but i need a break.  i love you all, though some more then others. i do in fact enjoy raiding with most of you even when i die to attrition or we wipe because of dumb things. 

tldr: i'm out of mythic for a few weeks reconsidering after holidays. 

[Mastric]

No one admit to him the truth, he typed up too many words to be let down so hard.

[Varibash]

if you're hoping for an apology, you will never get one.

Your "realistic" attitude effects the entire raid team, just because you choose not to acknowledge it is a different story. 

Is the raid team perfect, fuck no, we have problems, absolutely, but bitching about a problem without providing a solution is stupid and pointless.

I will always put the good of the group over the feelings of an individual. Always. You're a good guy and you mean well, but shit, it's a pain in the ass as is to maintain a raid team without having to worry about people's pointless drama. So take all the time you want, ATR isn't going anywhere.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Phobia

[jesseh]

I don't want an apology, you're allowed to state your opinion as am I. I hadn't taken the time to explain my thoughts, raid clearly isn't the time to do that so I took the time here.

Its hard to give solutions to the problems we all know are at hand without having to tip toe through pissing people off.

 If you want some blink, blink blazing speed, greater invisibility, and ice block seems like a good start. Lock portals displacer beast priest feathers and savage roar seem like other solutions, or dodge mechanics/sit people who cant. We don't have the roster for that. Put really simply we don't have room to replace those who hold us back. I was keeping notes Wednesday there were 5 people who messed up fairly consistently.  I'm not saying go in and be perfect I'm saying we need to do mechanics. This issue has never really been addressed. It has a band-aid on it that consists of out dps the fight or over heal, neither of which are currently an option. 

If we really want to progress into mythic we need people to be on there A game.  Doing everything they can to progress.. when we were going into heroic Archi I went and made 125 food for everyone because I thought it was going to help us progress then I filled the gbank with it, people still aren't using it. We need to change the mentality of it all if we want to get as far as we can. I think were not currently ready to do that. We should have a roster of 25 people minimum.  I know we got Hatty and Bud back and that's a great start, even got a new druid. However that puts us at just 20.  I understand we need to gear people out and I'm fine doing that, I'll help do that. I just don't believe we are ready for mythic and I don't think its worth the frustrations right now. 

This content is getting old and boring, even if it splashes a new mechanic in. Its burning out. If it wasn't for other people needing help to gear up, and those timewalking mounts I would had made this post a long while ago.. all be it under different circumstances.  

With that said I enjoy raiding with everyone 90% of the time,  we are a good group of people to have around. I would call most of you my friends even you bash. Even if we don't see eye to eye on all things.  idk maybe its my sense of humour, part of what I say in raid is mostly joking but there is some truth to it. there's room for improvement. 

In all honesty I think we as a whole can do a lot and progress a lot but we need to get to the point we aren't carrying people. The archi kill still impressed me.  I really do think we could at some point get to mythic Gorefeind, but that again requires A game. Max food, runes, and Valor grinds.  I understand that people are busy, and it really sucks raiding doesn't get you Valor, but we need every bit we can get. It's a commitment people need to make, but that takes away from us being a casual guild.

 We could do great things, we are a great guild but we need to not be held back.

[Varibash]

You're asking to make the raid team more hardcore, we tried that, or have you forgotten. News flash, it didn't work out in the long run.

 

I'm very happy with the raid team as is, we aren't hardcore but we still manage to kill more content then 90% of the WoW community. The difference between 100 food and 125 food is not going to make or break ANY fight for a guild like ours. 

 

We will continue to push new content as long as we have players showing up for it. Is wiping frustrating, yes, it wiping because a few people are having difficulties on a specific mechanic, absolutely, but we decided as a guild at the start of the xpac that we weren't going to become like we became toward the end SoO. Hardcore mentality is harmful and makes for an unfun raid atmosphere and causes more drama then it's worth.

 

Case in point, you made this long ass post to air the drama caused by me telling you to stop being so negative.

[jesseh]

2 minutes ago, Phobia said:

Case in point, you made this long ass post to air the drama caused by me telling you to stop being so negative

That's not exactly correct but it was part of it. The bigger part is explaining myself in my decision. I felt  I owed and explanation. I also don't feel like I'm really alone in my thoughts on this matter.  There is no simple solution to it. Essentially if we were to progress we would need more people to exchange with people who are not performing up to par. who are distracted. The easiest solution would probably be to have a merger. But that is somewhat unfair to both parties. 

Its hard to find a balance between fun and progression. I'm not saying be super hard core. I'm saying people should do what the can do be better, and if unfortunately people continue to not understand fights, after a fair amount of time we sit them.  At least until the rest of us are in a condition to carry them or they improve on there own.  I don't think that's unfair. 

I also think we have different opinions on what's drama but that's not really relevant 

[Summa]

So im just jumping in here, I see this point from both perspectives. Honestly, Bash I think that you may be looking straight at the negative and the fact that hes "airing dirty laundry" or whatever you want to call it and not looking at the bigger picture of what he is saying.

I don't see Jesseh saying that we need to make the guild hardcore at all. What he is saying is that people need to be accountable for their actions. For example,  Heroic Iskar...after we wipe on that fight for an hour plus to mechanics--the ball, the chakrum, etc. The last think I want to do is go kill something like...mythic hellfire assault. If people cant pay attention to a mechanic where all they have to do is run our or click a button to pass a ball, it does not bode well for learning some of the mechanics in mythic. As well, on reaver (im guilty of it myself), we should be getting out of the cone effect, should have from when we started the fight back on normal, but people are still getting hit by it. Now it does the damage where it fucks the raid. Two or three people get it, its a wipe instantly.  So hes not saying to make the guild more hardcore, this guild is as fall from hardcore as there is. What he is saying is that people need to be accountable, sat, had ep taken away, missed out on loot, etc for the mistakes that they cause that fuck the rest of the raid. And while some may think "oh we can carry 1-2 people", we CANT in mythic everyone has to be their part. And in all honestly, I dont want to carry people, that takes the fun out of it when we wipe until we get to the point that we can provide "coverage" for the person that fucked up. 

It also means, that people arnt doing everything that they can to improve their toon. Why not take advantage of the free food that was put in the bank? Why do people Still not have their own food. I personally come to raid with my flasks, potions, food, and even feasts. It can also go to having the mats/enchants for gear that may drop or even having the best enchant on your gear available even though you are waiting on a better drop. Its about being prepared to raid and using all the tools available to make your toon better and in return make your boss attempts better. 

As a whole, what I get from Jesseh is that hes frustrated and a little bit sad that people are not taking going into mythic seriously. You can still have a good time and do the mechanics and bosses correctly. The things that he is asking for arnt that hard. Raid guilds need to have their raiders give a fuck about their toons. 

What needs to be remembered here, is that we are a group and 20ish raiders. We all fail and achieve as a team. Calling each other out for opinions or having negative thoughts will not solve shit. We are not all going to think the same. I think that all a whole, some type of balance does need to be found if we are to continue mythic and that everyone needs to remember that there is not an I in TEAM. Everything one person does effects the other 19 people.

 

This is MY 2 cents, take it how you will. 

 

Edit: I didnt read to the end, and basically just said what Jesseh said in his last post.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Summa

[Mastric]

Can't sit people without suitable replacements. Subtracting any amount of EP, depending on player, can have no effect on a raider or make them rage quit. With holding loot may have a similar effect but is untested.

The wipes on Iskar were due to attempts to recruit more raiders who are undergeared and under experienced.

As Bash is the only active recruiter finding raiders is difficult.

It has been ATR's stance to always provide enchants, food, pots/flasks, & Jens. The guilds way of allowing less timeable raiders to stay competitive. Some do now use this as a crutch.

Bash's current method of shooting down negativity comes from previous raid teams & content becoming over rotten. We've been though a lot of squeaky wheels over the years and its had its effect.

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk

[jesseh]

24 minutes ago, Mastric said:

It has been ATR's stance to always provide enchants, food, pots/flasks, & Jens. The guilds way of allowing less timeable raiders to stay competitive. Some do now use this as a crutch.

i think you've misinterpreted what she said about this. I think she's saying that she's ready to go and has the dedication for it vs just showing up and having things provided. not that providing such accommodations is a bad thing. 

I also don t think anyone really cares about EP at this point i know i don't but that might also be because my only competition for loot is really Kansir and i need a weapon he has 2 of now. I also disagree with holding back loot because then things just become loot council and that just creates problems. 

sitting people is really the only option (again not instantly but after enough times messing up) which requires a bigger roster (which is why i continue to be willing to gift people gear). 

as for Iskar our raiders fuck up as much as our recruits. there is actually a huge correlation between me not getting the ball and us dying because the fel warden. which sounds arrogant but feels accurate. 

 

[Varibash]

I can only sub people who are failing if we have subs, to have subs, we have to recruit players, sometimes these recruited players are under geared compared to the rest of the raid and we need to do farm to gear them to the rest of the raids level. Meaning we have to spend time everyweek on content most people are bored of doing. Necessary evils, and what not.

I know who the people failing constantly on reaver are, i'm not fucking blind... but wtf do you want me to do about it.... I can't threaten to sit them if mythic requires 20 people and I don't have someone to replace them. I can't threaten EP because people at this point don't care about it. The best and only real option I have is what I have been doing to handle it is have myself and the other officers whisper them asking what is going on and if they are confused how something works. Which doesn't always work because we have certain people in the raid who even though they die a lot always claim it's someone's fault beside their own (ie - i didnt get enough heals.) 

[Ftfk]

I think everyone is on the same page? We know we have people that fail mechanics, everyone is overly aware of who they are, and we want to have a bench to sub people out so we can continue to progress. A few thoughts

1.)We had a few things working against us this week, Buds hunter got locked out due to server transfer and mort was sorta unable to raid. Next week we will have 2 more people that we will be able to maneuver around to field the best team we can put together.

2.)Quitting only makes things worse, since that is another DPS spot that we will have to gear up/recruit. Pretty much adds to our identified problem

3.) 125 stat food hardly matters, unless you are a panda. I mean we just got a +10 ilvl buff for those who care to farm it, that puts us in a way better position than most guilds who cleared this content at 710-715ish ilvl.

4.) We are raiding Mythic only because we have cleared heroic, we have the numbers, and we still have a lot of people who seem interested in raiding and pushing new content

To be honest we don't have a whole lot of "mythic" raiders in our raid team, and a lot more think they are more elite than they really are. Talking to mythic raiders, they put a lot of time and effort into learning the intricacies of their class, researching strats, and evaluating their own play to figure out how to eek a little more performance out of their gear. We have some people who do some of this, but very few who can say they do all these things. Elite players change spec/talents to optimize to the encounter and their role (range/tank/healer/melee). Its not just all about memorize a rotation and stick to that, you need to make split second decisions every second based off what the encounter is providing. You need to know spells to use while moving, what abilities you can use to drop debuffs, or use as DR to avoid fatal damage.

[jesseh]

7 minutes ago, Ftfk said:

I mean we just got a +10 ilvl buff for those who care to farm it

maybe instead of mythic we should break down into smaller groups and get people valor.  and think of my leave more as taking a break then calling it till legion. i think most of us are on the same page. and that page keeps reading we are not ready for mythic. we need more people we need more attention and we need that +10 ilvl upgrade. its not us becoming hard core its us spending our limited time more intelligently. we could get repeatedly face fucked by a boss all night or we could do something more productive. even smashing through LFR or something. 

i understand me not wanting to do "progression" is part of the issue but i feel we have too many issues moving forward we all have them addressed here, however these arnt things that we can really change currently. and i've said before repeatedly I will be around Tusedays to help gear people. and see how things go later on. 

Stat food might not be a big help but it still is something we can do to improve same with using runes.  and if we are going to be forced into carrying people in mythic then we need to do everything we can to improve our performances. 

33 minutes ago, Ftfk said:

We are raiding Mythic only because we have cleared heroic, we have the numbers, and we still have a lot of people who seem interested in raiding and pushing new content

that logic honestly seems questionable at this stage. we should focus on improvements then new content  imo. 

[Mastric]

This may be related to you arriving late and just missing out on the start of a night Jesseh. But we tried twice to do a Valor run as we are waiting for people like yourself, pika, mort, & yarn to sign on, the response was bad.

[jesseh]

that is news to me.. but i still think theres value to it 

[Unholy]

3 hours ago, jesseh said:

We could get repeatedly face fucked by a boss all night. 

Suddenly my interest in raid is raised.

[mokou]

Jesseh here's the thing. Your expectations of the guild and the underperformance thereof is your own thought. No one wanted you to judge and evaluate on how they're performing.

If you feel frustrated over people doing badly then that's your own problem. If some people fuck up mechanics and do poor dps then that's they're own problem. Some may just naturally be slower at learning the game or just equipped with a lower skill cap. But it doesn't mean they have to fix that - ATR focuses on holding hands. However, if they are aiming to do well, then they are the ones who should be feeling frustrated, not you. There is no reason for you to get mad over that because the ultimate goal of ATR isn't hardcore progression.

Some people may not want to push for mythic but are just going along because they want to raid with ATR. This may or may not lead to such "underperformance" you are sick of.

It goes the same for you - you continue playing assassination because you don't want to learn subtlety even though it puts out the most dps. And you whine about people not eating 125 2nd stat food. 25 more stat will boost one's dps by some number of course, but it'll surely be less than the difference between the best dps spec and another (simcraft dps charts show this). Now I'm not telling you to go play subtlety and practice your rotations to dish out 100k dps to benefit the raid. I'm just saying even you are not going 'above and beyond' to push progression. Just like how you feel it's too much trouble to do so, some people find learning how to play the game 'too much trouble'.

I practice my rotations, constantly look up forums and ask my Korean overlords on how to squeeze out more dps. I change my trinkets, talents and glyphs on bosses that need to be changed for to see that pink line at the top of the dps meters. If paladins had another dps spec that did more dps than I'd instantly switch. The fact that I try hard playing this game is clearly shown by the meters. So what do you think you look like in my eyes? Bluntly put, it just sounds like you're whining about some people doing worse than you when there are multiple players who do much better than you and put in more effort into playing the game. If you have room to learn and improve, why don't you spend your time improving your own self instead of worrying about others?

[mokou]

btw your profile pic's from a really terrible series

[jesseh]

well i actually switched to sub and decided i needed to learn it even though i'm sure i'll hate it. not the point though. the point is Terror in Resonance was a masterpiece (even if every line of english dialogue sounds aweful in anime).  but majority of what i'm saying is we need to figure shit out. figure out what the plan is and stick to it.  and theres a big difference between relearning a class for mythic and bringing up a problem that has plagued us for ages.  if some have a lower skill cap then they shouldnt be in mythic. 

you're acting like i'm the only one who has an issue with what is going on. but i can sit there and talk to quite a few of us who feel the same as i do. 

2 hours ago, mokou said:

If you feel frustrated over people doing badly then that's your own problem. If some people fuck up mechanics and do poor dps then that's they're own problem

this line here is just completely incorrect. and it keeps coming back to the same thing. the thing that every raider who's done mythic has told everyone. not just in our guild but everywhere, one very simple YOU CAN'T CARRY MYTHIC.  If we want to hold hands thats fine but it needs to be done on heroic. we need to do mechanics in mythic we can't out gear it... (well we could but people dont grind valor)

 

2 hours ago, mokou said:

Just like how you feel it's too much trouble to do so, some people find learning how to play the game 'too much trouble'.

the major difference between me and them is i do mechanics, i'm not an active hindrance, and most importantly i know the fucking fights. the same fights weve been doing since June? can you really justify people not understanding them still? watch a fatboss video understand the fight if you dont already. thats not an unreasonable thing to expect from a raider.

[Mortelinnor]

In my understanding it was made clear back in Highmaul and Foundry that ATR isn't focused on mythic progression. Honestly, I could care less what content we raid, heck I'd still show up if it was normal Highmaul just because I enjoy raiding with other people. With that said, I get that the fact that we're done with heroic with so long to go until Legion has brought up the issue of "What now?" that we seem to have.

I'm fully aware that I'm below the skill level of a mythic raider, and a lot of people in the raid group are in the same position. Simply put, you cannot ask that we change the mentality of the guild in order to satisfy your need to down new content easily. I'm sure it would be possible, with enough recruiting effort, to find new raiders with mythic skill level and push for server rank/ epeen / special rainbow unicorn ilvl, but that would mean telling half the current group to fuck off. I would never be fine with this, even if was to somehow still have a spot in the group.

I'm going to go with Bash on this one (note it on the calendar someone!), we've been down this road in SoO and it clearly didn't work out well.

If you need time to reconsider wether or not you want to keep raiding, then the most logical thing to do is take it. Raiding should never be a chore, and if you keep raiding in these conditions you will only burn out yourself and other raiders further.

[Kai]

'you can't carry mythic' is only true when it's current content. the first few bosses in HFC right now you can very easily carry a few people. These bosses aren't tuned for a raid that's fully decked in HFC heroic gear and has valor upgrades. This stuff is meant to be done in 10 less item levels then we have right now. Plus some classes got 5-10% buffs on top of that. Carrying a bunch of people that don't min/max at this point on these bosses isn't the problem. We will kill a few more bosses. It just doesn't happen in the first hour of pulls.

Yes, some people die more often to mechanics then others. But there's always a learning curve. We won't just kill a mythic boss every 2 hours. That's not how this guild is set up or the mind set of most players here. I don't see the problem either. We won't clear this mythic tier. Even with months to go, I'm sure we can agree that that's very unlikely to happen. Xhul, Mannoroth and Archimonde are just serious step ups in difficulty. Both playing-mechanic wise as set-up wise. Xhul and Mannoroth you're pretty much required to have 2 death knights in your raid. xhul you need 4 mages/hunters/spriests. ideally 1-2 hunters on top of that. Zakuun you need a bunch of classes with immunities. Progressing on these with a guild that clearly has a casual agenda is just not realistic.

So how does it matter where we wipe on right now? We're raiding 6-8 hours per week. it's not like we're throwing us against some brickwall and do some encounter so often every week that we're getting sick of it. We'll kill a few mythics. Maybe 5, maybe 8. Something like that. There might be a massive nerf patch before legion that allows us to clear everything too. If you have the ambition to fully clear HFC mythic before such a patch or before Legion, I think you're just in the wrong guild.

 

To me this reads like you don't want to wipe. That's fair enough, but then you're probably just bored of raiding in general. At the end of the day the only way to not wipe is to not raid or to join a guild that's already 13/13 and carries you through the instance. In any other scenario there's wiping involved. There are better/more hardcore guilds that didn't wipe on Iron Reaver. But they wiped later on. Most guilds in the top 1000 needed 100-200 pulls for gorefiend. And then several days/weeks for xhul/mannoroth/archimonde. And all these wipes are due to someone not standing in the correct spot, not pressing the correct button or not donig enough dps/hps.

 

Again, this sounds like to me IF we killed iron reaver, kromogg, council and kilrogg easily, this same post would then be made on gorefiend. or on tyrant/xhul. there's always a few hours/days of wiping involved when you step into mythic content if a majority of the raid group haven't done the stuff before.

[Pìkachu]

Honestly jesseh this post is surprising coming from you after being in this guild so long. You know it takes us a long as time to go through fights that are very reliant on individual accountability. I don't think we have even a quarter of the wipes on this boss as we did on Malkorok and we still pushed through that. This is a guild full of casual raiders. Yes some people put a lot more effort into their characters then others but at the end of the day we still raid 7 hours a week and thats as casual as it gets. I understand its frustrating seeing 20 wipes to the exact same mechanic that should be simple to see but thats just how this guild works. We have people with all kinds of skill and learning levels and just like malkorok when a mechanic you could get away with in normal oneshots you in heroic it takes some time to relearn it. Its been that way with this guild for years and no amount of complaining is going to fix that. There just simply is not the player base interested in wow or our guild to build a full mythic team of mythic raiders and it is not this guilds philosophy to do so. 

[Varibash]

1 minute ago, Pìkachu said:

Honestly jesseh this post is surprising coming from you after being in this guild so long. You know it takes us a long as time to go through fights that are very reliant on individual accountability. I don't think we have even a quarter of the wipes on this boss as we did on Malkorok and we still pushed through that. This is a guild full of casual raiders. Yes some people put a lot more effort into their characters then others but at the end of the day we still raid 7 hours a week and thats as casual as it gets. I understand its frustrating seeing 20 wipes to the exact same mechanic that should be simple to see but thats just how this guild works. We have people with all kinds of skill and learning levels and just like malkorok when a mechanic you could get away with in normal oneshots you in heroic it takes some time to relearn it. Its been that way with this guild for years and no amount of complaining is going to fix that. There just simply is not the player base interested in wow or our guild to build a full mythic team of mythic raiders and it is not this guilds philosophy to do so. 

I feel like this post was mainly created because I stepped on his dick when I told him to stop being so negative all the time.

[Crazy]

Didn't I say something like this when we were progressing on Mythic Twins? I think I did. And I think this was basically the same response back then as it is now. it seems weird how you want to take a more critical approach to Mythic's now when it was stated a long time ago that the guild had no intention of doing so. Oh well, back to my hidey hole that is my druid. I'm not trying to bring negativity, just think you all needed a dose from the real salt lord for everyone to realize how fun everyone is, unlike me. 8)

Edited December 7, 2015 by Muln

[Mortelinnor]

6 minutes ago, Muln said:

Didn't I say something like this when we were progressing on Mythic Twins? I think I did. And I think this was basically the same response back then as it is now.

Woah, it's almost like we're consistent with our raiding philosophy! Who would've thought...

[Varlash]

2 things, I didn't schedule anything on wednesdays. Im impressed this circle jerk is still going, it's been made very clear that this is how things operate, i fought it for months and months, i have the title to prove it. People are happy with smashing their face on a boss with their friends, and have no interest in replacing people that cannot to mechanics. its really that simple, it's nobody's fault, its not a bad thing. Just a fact.

Edited December 7, 2015 by JelloShot