Group 2 Loot Questions

[Bountyrage]

Let me start off my saying I wasn't sure where to post this, so please move it to where it should be if needed. Also let me say that Rebel has ruled on this decision and I just wanted to voice an opinion and ask others for theirs as well.

So this is what happened a caster sword dropped (with +hit on it) no one wanted for main spec except a warlock that had no DKP to spend on the item. The winner of the OS roll was a holy pally and won the item for 17dkp. I think this is kinda sad, when clearly the only person that wanted it and would put it to the best use was unable to win the item.

Also worth noting we did have a simi similiar issue the week b4 where a healing weapon dropped and the only healer that could use it was short the required dkp for the min bid. and was allowed to go negative like 20 dkp or so. (note: the extra dkp need was made up in that run)

Now I do understand that maintaining equal rules for all will ultimately stop guild drama and I most certainly agree with that. But seein how this was a new issue and it was decided on the spot maybe some more thought should be placed on it. ps I have no solution in mind so feel free to offer up some if ud like.

There is a poll at the top for people to vote if you would like to go that route.

In closing, G2 rocked shit and we got lots of loot for all which will help the group progress!!

Bounty

[Berms]

Warlock probably should've gotten it. Unless he was a fresh recruit vs a more established raider. I think there is/was a rule where in that case the Lock's main spec would have to compete against the holy pally's offspec. Then again, I'm probably thinking of TGF's loot rules.

Don't worry too much. Shit happens. I (mail user) won a cloth belt over clothies and the druids didn't realize they could bid as well. Learning experience for all.

[Sashalynn]

IMO there is no reason an os should ever win over a ms. Most people with os will never use it. Didn't we have this issue last night in G1? Well not really an issue but it came up a few times. Personally even though I have started using os gear a lot lately, Id rather pass even if I win to someone that will need it later. Giving someone a ms item even with no dkp only benefits the raid. Making sure the ms raiders are geared will help everyone in the long run. In case of os/ms rolling against each other. If the os wins it's only right to pass to the ms. Not only is that polite it will make your peers look up to you and who knows in the future you may get passed an item that another ms person won.

[Bountyrage]

yea it didn't directly effect me at all, i just left the raid with a meh feeling about it and wanted to see if others felt this way as well.. i mean its not like we will never see it again or anything

[Ambika]

I agree with Bounty on this. If someone needed an item on MS it should have went to a MS and not an OS. That is one thing that I dislike about a dkp system. And Cyianna is also correct. "If the OS wins it's only right to pass to the MS." If it doesn't that's sorta greedy imo.

And we did rock the shit out of ICC last night!

Edited July 22, 2010 by Ambika

[Berms]

The only thing that's not clear is whether one of them was a fresh recruit. In which case, they get a lower priority. It happens in Group 1. Some of the fresh recruits get skipped during the bidding for people who have been there longer. If it goes to OS, then they roll. It's then up to the winner as to whether to pass.

I play Devil's Advocate for both sides.

[Sashalynn]

The only thing that's not clear is whether one of them was a fresh recruit. In which case, they get a lower priority. It happens in Group 1. Some of the fresh recruits get skipped during the bidding for people who have been there longer. If it goes to OS, then they roll. It's then up to the winner as to whether to pass.

I play Devil's Advocate for both sides.

It's good to see pros and cons on stuff like this. Although I don't totally agree with you. Just because they are new doesn't mean it won't benefit the guild in the long run. Biggest issue I've ever had with a dkp system is loot whores.

Example: A player bids on something that is just barely an upgrade but wants it anyway. B player bids and it's a major upgrade. A player wins.

Which player do you thing would benefit the guild the most. Not talking new people lets just pretend this is raiders that have been around for awhile.

[Mastric]

To put names in here, It was Avengedd a good raider but recently a bad attendance record VS. Greatbadgirl(Greatbad's alt who is becoming more his main for G2 and maybe Cata) an Officer with perfect attendance.

Now it was not just Avengedd vs Great there were maybe 4 or 5 other OS rolls Great just got the highest. This item was also put up for bid 3 times, first time no one wanted it, second time Avengedd wanted it but had no DKP. Third time was the final win.

The loot is set and nothing was wrong with the way it was handled.

But for the future we need to know; Can a member go negative for an item that they are bidding on, if the Min bid is greater then there Net DKP VS Offspec rollers. As a side note when we make the change to EPGP this issue will be null as EPGP has a different system to handle this with MS always winning.

On a side note I've been a Loot Whore the last three weeks. For the last 3 weeks I've won a new Wand every week biding my near Max DKP, for these minor Upgrade Wands lol...

[Sashalynn]

To put names in here, It was Avengedd a good raider but recently a bad attendance record VS. Greatbadgirl(Greatbad's alt who is becoming more his main for G2 and maybe Cata) an Officer with perfect attendance.

Now it was not just Avengedd vs Great there were maybe 4 or 5 other OS rolls Great just got the highest. This item was also put up for bid 3 times, first time no one wanted it, second time Avengedd wanted it but had no DKP. Third time was the final win.

The loot is set and nothing was wrong with the way it was handled.

But for the future we need to know; Can a member go negative for an item that they are bidding on, if the Min bid is greater then there Net DKP VS Offspec rollers. As a side note when we make the change to EPGP this issue will be null as EPGP has a different system to handle this with MS always winning.

On a side note I've been a Loot Whore the last three weeks. For the last 3 weeks I've won a new Wand every week biding my near Max DKP, for these minor Upgrade Wands lol...

Hun you should have left the names out of this. No one needs to know that part. Most of this is just a discussion which I'd think the officers would like to know how raiders feel. My point being is MS should pretty much always win over os and imo big upgrades should win over minor upgrades. But this is just my opinion.

Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one

[Glitterstim]

Now it just got weird for me, because I was born assholeless. Great, just great.

[Berms]

Just because something is a bigger upgrade from someone, doesn't make it always the best choice to give it to them. We used to do Loot Council, but eventually moved away from it in the interest of saving time and less hassle. I'm sure someone can find a way to game most systems. We used to have people not pushing for a moderate upgrade and instead winging it with what they had until a BiS dropped and since they were the most disadvantaged, then it went to them.

DKP at least reflects the time investment people have put in. For the things I most want, I'll bid large. The rest, I scale my bidding depending on how much of an improvement it is for me. If someone wants to go all in to win something, then that's their call. They'll eventually not have enough to buy something when it really matters.

If I lose out on something that I really want, the only person I can get annoyed with is myself for not bidding enough. If they had more in the bank, then I never had a chance anyway.

[Sashalynn]

Just because something is a bigger upgrade from someone, doesn't make it always the best choice to give it to them. We used to do Loot Council, but eventually moved away from it in the interest of saving time and less hassle. I'm sure someone can find a way to game most systems. We used to have people not pushing for a moderate upgrade and instead winging it with what they had until a BiS dropped and since they were the most disadvantaged, then it went to them.

DKP at least reflects the time investment people have put in. For the things I most want, I'll bid large. The rest, I scale my bidding depending on how much of an improvement it is for me. If someone wants to go all in to win something, then that's their call. They'll eventually not have enough to buy something when it really matters.

If I lose out on something that I really want, the only person I can get annoyed with is myself for not bidding enough. If they had more in the bank, then I never had a chance anyway.

Most of us are talking about players with no dkp who need an item that is a huge upgrade vs someone with lots of dkp and it's a side grade.

Also a ms item going to an os because again not enough dkp. I am also not saying it's always the the best choice, each situation is different. Go with which ever will benefit the guild more. Keep that in mind before you respond.

I am not saying dkp is bad. Each loot system has it's pros/cons.

[Perenelle]

If someone doesn't have enough DKP for minimum bid they either 1) spent all their DKP for an item they REALLY wanted recently and not saving enough for min is their own fault or 2) new or poor attendance.

I have seen too many people come in new, go very negative in the DKP department and as soon as they were geared enough to get into a different guild, bail. I know that some of the new guys would stay, but every time a guild gets used like that it leaves a bad taste about new guys. The only way to avoid that is to wait until they are past their trial period. Hell, when I first started raiding, I had been with Conventus (at that time they were NaG) for over 6 months as a non-raider while Gump was their main off-tank. When I started raiding, I had to wait 2 or 3 weeks before I was allowed to bid on anything, even though I'd been around, farming guild mats and they knew I wasn't going to leave. I watched priest gear get DE's or left rotting because I couldn't bid yet. It's the way it was and by not whining about it they knew was being serious about raiding.

I've stating before that I liked loot council because officers discuss this shit privately and no one can really be a loot whore, but DKP has advantages, especially in being quick. Our officers are very concerned with being fair and trying to figure out some of the gear would take them forever.

[Mastric]

EPGP removes the bidding asspect and replaces it with a player rating. The addon also can use a bit of loot council when give items as well. The System seem much smooth and that is why we are doing to try it soon.