Roqwell

If we consider progression alone I think it would be necessary to trim on fights, but not without giving people some number of attempts to at least give them a chance to show they can do the fight and can do the mechanics. Because of how raiding scales now, if a couple people are underperforming and not meeting the bare minimum necessary to cover the boost the fight gets from their presence then they are being carried - either slightly or heavily - by the raiders who are going above and beyond for the fight. Raiders meeting dead even neither help or hinder the fight in terms of health and are just extra bodies present. We are a casual guild. Not everyone is here min/maxing and spending hours perfecting their class because it is casual. That being said, if we don't progress or we are struggling to down new bosses.. even those here for just a casual guild start to get frustrated bashing their head against a wall. Calling out people doing something wrong or sending whispers that they need to step it up or they may be sat would be a good idea since not everyone checks Skada after every wipe and certainly not everyone checks logs after a raid to see how they did. Warning is good. It's also good to take care to remember what the warning was about and make sure the person warned has at least one attempt to try and fix their errors (be that we make it to the part of the fight where they were having problems in that attempt). Trimming the group before even attempting a new boss is ill-advised, if anyone considers that. We've proved time and time again that after sitting people one week (like with IM) to down a boss, the very next week we were able to down it with the entire group. It's very possible for us to down new bosses as a whole... but that also doesn't mean we should keep pushing the entire group through 100+ attempts when we could down it with a few people on bench to give everyone the boost to down it as a group next week. But a certain number of attempts does everyone good to get used to the mechanics and at least attempting to down a dragon together. If we can't down it together the first time it isn't a huge deal so long as people are warned and given a chance to better their errors. We'll be able to get in more people, maybe everyone, next week when we kill the stupid dragon again.

It's that time of the semester again... Humans V Zombies! This time I also get to be a mod player and yell at the kiddies when they get in fights over who killed who first! Also means that I really need to be there for missions each night and they start at the same time our raid does. If the mission ends before raid does (which they're early week missions and typically a mission with 80 humans V 10 zombies doesn't last long) I'll hop on and join late if you'll have me in. Otherwise, next week I'll need to be off eating brains. Sorry. Good luck with killing stuff while I'm gone though!

A lot of reading indeed.... I do agree with Jim's summary of what's been said. Sitting people who constantly mess up on mechanics is definitely good since a 1k DPS is better than a dead DPS. Also agreeing with the bad DPS until absolutely necessary (enrage timer hit frequently) particularly because the game is imbalanced. Some classes just suck. Plain suck no matter which spec you are and no amount of research or effort or skill will make that class any better and it feels really sour to sit someone for something they can't even attempt to control. But if we need to sit them and do down the boss... should just be looked at as the rest of the raid gearing up to hopefully carry that unfortunate soul next week that has no control. Honestly, I wasn't even bothered by the IM attempts or found any necessity to sit people faster. If I recall right there was a flat warning about possibly sitting and then a few attempts, which is fair. Warning people and then giving them a chance to improve is good. To warn then sit the very next attempt is a bit hasty and doesn't give them a chance (also unfair considering some attempts might just be really bad all around and one individual shouldn't be held accountable for the entire poor attempt). Though, giving them five or six or more attempts to improve is beyond generous and just excessive. But didn't really feel like that on IM. The only time I ever felt frustrated that we weren't sitting people sooner was on the Train Fucker. Particularly because of several people who constantly kept getting hit by the trains. Like... three attempts in a row they took a train to the face and we were really struggling because of the consistently failed mechanics. It was obvious they were failing. Yet, ten attempts later there is finally warning (not actual sitting) that people will be sat. Now I don't suggest being more 'hardcore' about it and having a firm ruling of "3 strikes" or something because each instance is different and a player could improve and regress like a roller coaster on a fight making it a difficult call... but in instances where it is painfully obvious someone is failing constantly then maybe it just isn't their night and maybe they should do something else. Like I said.. I honestly found no problems with needing to sit people faster on IM. The mistakes we're pretty widespread and there were very few people who were somewhat constantly slowing the raid progression, but in instances like with Douchey McTrain where it's obvious I don't think it's unreasonable to sit a person - who is probably aware of their faults already - for consistently failing a mechanic. I'm sure everyone would love to have the entire raid in on a kill. I would. But it is necessary sometimes to sit people so 15 people can get a kill and get loot instead of 20 people going to sleep without any purple pixels on the screen. I understand the hesitance on wanting to keep everyone in on a kill but I also feel like sometimes there is too much hesitance and it honestly baffled me with Shitting Trains-A-Lot how long we waited to sit people.

I don't think Mort was being too annoying, just asking a question... though the last comment seemed unnecessary and the first was a bit off. Overall, 1/3.. not terrible. Mort, if I can, I want to tell you something: why people are finding you annoying... because I feel like you don't understand why or believe it's something else. It isn't some bias against you. That's gone. If I'm wrong and there are instances recently where you've been picked at by people then feel free to tell me, but as far as I've seen recently you are not a scapegoat through any means other than when you bring it upon yourself. Frequently, whenever someone is screwing up or doing something wrong and they don't get sat you redirect the attention back at yourself for a pity party saying something like: "if that was me i would be kicked from guild" No. No you would not. Because there is no bias against you anymore. It's gone. If you did the same thing they did you would get treated the same at this point and your constant need to be pitied is getting on a lot of people's nerves. Tonight, for example, Pikachu died to the trains a lot and you redirected the attention to yourself saying if you were doing that you'd be kicked. Yet, the rest of the night you actually became just as terrible as Pikachu at dodging trains and..... what happened? Were you sat? Kicked from guild? Yelled at? No. You got the same treatment Pikachu did. Quite frankly, the more you do this -- the trying to direct attention back to yourself and pretend like you're still a bullied nerd in high school -- the more likely it will happen again. Something called "self-fulfilling prophecy". If you keep acting like you're a victim, keep trying to repeat over and over again how mistreated you are, keep redirecting the attention of another person failing to try and get pity.. eventually what you keep saying is happening will actually happen. Keep acting like a victim, you'll be a victim. People will get so fed up with your pessimistic, self-pitying attitude that they'll lash out at you for it and you don't stop. People tell you to stop but you refuse to admit you are anything but a victim like tonight when TBear said "yeah sure, you'd be kicked" ONLY to tell you what you wanted to hear and not because it was the truth. It was a lie. Honestly... TBear is showing you what will inevitably happen although he is not lashing out intensely. TBear is not a person that could even have bias. He was not here in the past, he's still decently new, so he has no real idea about how you were before your return and furthermore has made clear efforts beforehand to disregard what he's been told and give you a new start. But now he is a bit snippy with you and sometimes can't stand you (not trying to call you out TBear, just trying to make a point). People are going to start turning on you not because of the past or any bias but because you won't stop trying to get pity and won't stop complaining about mistreatment that doesn't exist anymore. This is why people find you annoying and it needs to stop. It needs to stop when people tell you to and it needs to stop now because it's clear the officers have given you warnings and you aren't heeding them. You are no longer a victim, you act like one. Just let the past go and move on because at this point you're only making a fairly neutral situation for yourself bad. Okay?

It would only happen if you became a consistent problem. One small mistake, even when under watch, does not and should not equal to a kick.

Mort, I do understand there is a bias present but as of recently it has never been that extreme and you misunderstand the rules. The rules are set into place in order to keep order and put an end to the select few that are making raid unpleasant and wasting people's times during the night. When Snugg admitted it wasn't targeting Summa or Ansky it's an impersonal statement. Summa and Ansky haven't been problematic raiders and therefore on that factual basis there is no sense in why they should be defensive about the rules since they won't be affected. If the rules do affect you.. then it will be because you are being a problematic raider. Or at least that's the intent of the rules. There is still a bit of aggression towards you and Will but that heat has calmed down immensely since you both came back. If you feel like someone specific is out to get rid of you then share who because as far as I'm aware the only time I've heard an officer explicitly state something along the lines of "I'm waiting for the chance to get rid of you" it was from Bash (and I think jokingly so... maybe not, I can't speak for him). Mastric, Snugg, Ftfk.. I don't believe they have any desire to get rid of you and if they did I highly doubt it would be done through some long process of making rules and waiting to pounce. Imagining that you were the one to facepull the boss.... I expect the response would have been the same with slight differences. The tones may have been harsher towards you than to Jay but at worst maybe someone would raise their voice.. at worst, and I doubt even that would happen. You wouldn't be kicked on one mistake like that and neither would Will. If either of you do get kicked over something as mundane as one facepull then I wouldn't let it slide. There is bias still, but it's getting better and significantly lower than it has been. These rules are not made specifically for anyone, they are made as a general necessity for multiple people ruining the raiding experience for the group.

Also as a slightly side note, I think this video directly deals with the issue Will is having with the officers, at least in the part where he was called a racist. Not so much on who's right but a good video to explain how the conversation could have been better approached (I wasn't present but from what I gather there are ill-feelings regarding it) and maybe give ideas on how to move forward. Maybe an explanation on why what he did was wrong or an apology for the assumption he was racist.. I don't know because I'm not a part of that argument but just offering a means to resolve the problem.

There is a certain amount of hypocrisy with the officers and it's been pointed out a lot in this post and in the past. However, to make a general conclusion of that topic, I think it's mostly being dealt with and done with. Yes, the officers do still go against the rules like last night when we were waiting to start because officers needed to talk with people but it wasn't intentional breaking of the rules. Nor are any of the other times the officers broke the rules intentional like with a bias to certain members. They were things that passively became a habit and were looked over by the officers because as with what most people do; it's easy to criticize another but difficult to find the faults in yourself. The officers have all greatly improved on being less bias and holding up to the rules themselves but like everyone they still screw up here and there. The difference is, now the officers are trying to be more diligent in punishing themselves and trying to fix the problems they cause. It's not from them thinking the rules don't apply to them, but from forgetting the rules still apply to them. A lot of this post, I feel, keeps talking about the past. Not just the past like yesterday or last week but the last month, last half year, last expansion, and as I said before: people learn and change. Things change from day to day and in general I feel like things are changing for the better. Last night was very fun and enjoyable despite the little screw-ups some people had which were dealt with quickly and we all moved on. Things change every day and honestly, it seems like everyone keeps focusing more on the past than the present and especially more on the past than the future. These rules have barely been implemented yet and for the most part they seem fair. Most of them are rules that I came in expecting like, don't be late regularly, come enchanted and prepared, know your class, etc. etc. and to me it's a little weird seeing them have to be reiterated over and over again; so I guess restating what should have been a given isn't some set of ridiculously set rules out of the blue... it's what always should have been. These rules aren't as strict as some people make them out to be and as Snugg said they don't pertain to most of the raiding core, just a select few. All this past talk just becomes tiring and it's difficult to stop holding onto the past, especially where you felt wronged, but there reaches a point (that I feel most of the raiding core have met) where you need to just move on and focus about bettering the present/future than fixing the past which.. as far as it's concerned factually.. you can't change. Time is a permanent mark and we can't go back but we can definitely guide the future.

Mokou, there are better ways to tell a person that they aren't performing as well as they could be and just stating their faults to an officer similar to how a kid tells on his younger brother for breaking the vase isn't a good way to go about it. Pull him aside, point out he could be doing better and maybe suggest researching his class more and making sure he has everything down. Maybe point him in the direction. Give some constructive criticism and not just criticism so it's actually helpful and received better. Jesseh, on the other hand, also shouldn't get too defensive over a blunt and ill-offered criticism and return rudeness. Even if it's blunt and on the surface rude Mokou does have a point that your DPS isn't always grand and you could do better with mechanics. What Snugg said is still true... compare present Jesseh to SOO Jesseh and he is significantly better, much more reliable, and does better DPS. Take present Jesseh alone, and it's also clear he isn't amazing. Not bad, but could still improve. Don't get too heated guys. It's a discussion, not an arguement. Moving onto another subject that Mort touched on there is a consistent issue with Will and Mort getting blamed and taking a lot of hate. Even in teasing jest the venom is still there underneath. They both get snapped at a lot but it isn't always for the real issue with the two of them and usually they are responded to with more negativity than the average person screwing up. Like tonight, when Jay accidentally clicked the lock portal and facepulled the boss it was taken with slight annoyance but clear forgiveness and the correct punishment was given without bias. Mort has done similar things in the past but although he gets the same punishment Jay gets the verbal warnings are usually harsher and more mean-spirited. Same goes with warnings to Will and I know both of them have done some bad stuff in the past the underlying grudge held to both of them needs to stop and they should be treated the same way other raiders are. People change and improve for the better. But it's also important, Mort and Will, to look at yourself and both your improvements and faults. Mort you are actually pretty dang good at mechanics and from what I hear a good healer at times. Resto shamans ain't the best but I'm sure there are ways you could improve but overall you are one of the more mechanically sound people in the raid. You may miss what an officer explained but it also shows something that you aren't afraid to speak up when you don't understand and ask for clarification (although again, people get unnecessarily annoyed with you for it). But you do still have the problem of talking when it isn't necessary. Making idle comments during a fight or saying whatever comes to mind even if it doesn't pertain to the situation. You also sometimes click the wrong thing like with the bloodlust fiasco the other night and sometimes in the past with that pesky earth elemental. Will you can do some kickass DPS and are sometimes quite funny to have around. Generally, you're mechanically sound and at least you always know what to do but you don't always do it. You die a lot and not just in one case, multiple cases. You know the mechanics but when it comes to staying alive you seem to have trouble. Just as with Mort, you also have a problem with talking when it isn't necessary but in a different way to Mort. You don't speak out quite as much as Mort but when you're told to quiet down a bit (given you are saying something rude or we are about to pull) you sometimes don't and just keep going. If you feel it's unfair then you can bring it up later but to ignore when someone tells you to hush and talk over them makes everything you are saying go over their head because you are treating their request for silence with disrespect and continuing to talk. This isn't a post for calling out other people. Frankly, it should rarely be the case where you call out an individual unless you feel it absolutely necessary, then directly to an officer for concern. If you have a problem with someone, make the effort to work it out with them instead of blowing up on a thread like this when we're supposed to have a plain discussion about the new rules... alright?

The only thing I draw slight issues from. This policy is stricter than the attendance policies here at college. There are always instances where despite there only being a three absent limit the professor has certain circumstances where the absence will be excused. Same situation as the raid, I only see the dude two days a week for less time than we raid but there are still instances that can be excused because they are just out of the student's control or the situation is so severe it's understandable they can't be there. I get that a random post saying you won't be there with no explanation won't be excused but some instances when explained I think should be excused. The one-time situations that are severely unlikely to happen again but are keeping the raider from the raid.

Well.. I hope we can all learn from last night as an example of how people shouldn't act. Looking forward to your command Bash and hope tonight goes better.

Tonight just seemed... really.... really tense and it wasn't pleasant. Everyone was so quick to get pissed and there were quite a few arguments/snapping/yelling during raid. Officers and raiders alike were both so quick to get snappy and I think the rules on being nice were ignored a lot of the night even though the raid started saying it would be more enforced. The teasing for priest chick was completely uncalled for and vulgar. Clearly she expressed she didn't like it but it continued way longer than it should these "jokes" about her sexual life that came out of no where. The argument between where we position the boss and the tanking CDs could have been resolved better than disgruntled submission of "Okay fine! We'll tank it there so you'll do what we want!" And for me personally I really would rather not get snapped at and borderline yelled at by several people to die. Me and Mirus are hunters. We feign. When we feign we drop all aggro so whether it's successful or not we are generally last to die. Regardless of if we could have shaved four or five seconds off running back it's really just shocking how aggressive most of the raid got that they had to wait a few more seconds. I'll be fine with one calm voice telling me to die since the feign clearly failed but the aggressiveness of several people yelling at me to do so... just.... please can that not happen again?

I think this is the right place to put this? I don't know. There are worse, more unrelated places, you could post this. Good luck on your studies though man. Get your schoolings done.

Posting days late on Monday before next raid cause college. Still want to say my piece on this. I've been in guilds that have been heavy on progression and were near top on the server. The type of guilds that, once a boss is dead, we all immediately relog so it will go on the record on WoWprogress ASAP. It was always fairly tense. The only times it wasn't tense is if we were full clearing to farm stuff. Loot and progression were nice but to an extent and it became more important to people than anything else - to me included. My character was named Nidra and I became infamous on struggling progression nights or pointlessly consistent wipes to NidRAWR (as my guild called it) and yell over speak. It usually made the problem disappear.... but it's not the tactic I liked to use a lot. I would rather not be in a guild that reaches that level of tense drive for progression/loot or one whose officers/GM would actually allow/support my outbursts and furthermore not a guild that obsesses more about loot, how many people get loot, who gets the loot, than catching up on old bosses we missed or doing things for a silly achievement and nothing more. I sometimes get a worrying feeling the guild is heading into that direction or if not that some people are trying to force it that way. This post started on what we want to kill tomorrow and I think it got a little off track and was tipping on the fence near argument territory. Progression is important and is fun but I don't think every single raid night has to be dedicated from minute one to the end on progression alone when there are other options we're considering. Heroic Imp isn't as much progression as Twins but it does give us a couple benefits: - The Ahead achiev. - A few pieces of loot that will replace other pieces. - The full clear that many people don't even have on normal (so some satisfaction and catharsis for them). - Likely won't take as long to down given we've had some practice here and there. Mythic Twins: - Definite progression into mythic. - Pieces of loot that will definitely be upgrades. - Will likely take a long time to down with little to no practice. To me personally: H Imp gives more of a personal achievement while M Twins will give a pixelated achievement of better loot/clear progression. Pros/cons to each. I don't have too heavy a lean to either, honestly, though it seems like I'm more for H Imp I will go with what officers/majority desire. Though there is that clearly rational fear that if we did Twins we would never go back for Imp whereas if we did Imp there's no question we'd go to Twins next. But I think it's important to remember - as I understand it from the officers - this guild wants to have a nice raid atmosphere where people are nice to each other and have fun... but also to progress and with a couple progress to rank. That is an extremely tough pair of goals to balance and unfortunately whatever we pick here someone is going to be upset. Whatever option the officers go with someone is going to be somewhere from a little irked to furious. Just don't. Take a deep breath, calm down, and let it go. When the decision is made it's made and the conversations/arguments need to stop because arguing about a decision that has already been finalized is more wasteful than going back and doing Highmaul normal for two weeks. It makes everything tense and the stress of being mad we aren't doing what you wanted isn't worth it. Just try to find fun in what we are doing rather than mulling over what we aren't doing. Not good for you, not good for the raid, not good for everyone. And I'm done for today cause I have a lot of homework...

I agree with Edgeworth. I don't think it would take us more than one week to full clear BRF assuming that the rumors are correct in that it's easier than Highmaul + the average ilvl of the raid team. We'd smash through it easy and it would help us learn the base mechanics for each fight and just chill for a week. If it's so easy we can blow through it all in one night then that's grand, we blow through it all in one night and do heroic the next night. We would waste one week not doing heroics in order to run normal first, but that's only if you look at it as a waste. Learning base mechanics, chilling out, possible upgrades for some people, couple easy runes.... I don't think spending a week doing something that still gives benefits to the raid is a "waste". Furthermore, I doubt we'd do it for more than one clear or one week. By week two, if it's as we predict, I can't see many people being against heroic. We shoot for progression but we also shoot for a good raid atmosphere and I can't help but feel a little nervous that if we stormed in to do heroic BRF it would be like when we went to Heroic Twins and got smashed (different circumstances, but same emotional turmoil of shock and death). We can steady ourselves first and then run, or hit the ground running and possibly trip. Both options have uncertainty and neither is solid at the moment since we haven't experienced what isn't even out yet. In the end I'll go with what majority/officers want to do but I don't think one week (possibly a day) of a normal full clear would be such a catastrophic waste of precious time down to the minute. Might not be a big help but it definitely wouldn't hurt.

I meant 16th. I posted that at four in the morning. Give me credit that at least I posted this in the right thread at that time.

My friend is having a big showcase for his work at 7:30 PM and I'm going to be going to support him. Check out stuff. Maybe steal any food if they have it. Didn't know the time until tonight but he's also assured me that it shouldn't be long and I can leave early. I'm hoping to be back home somewhere from 8:30 PM - 9:00 PM so I should be there for the second half of raid.

Can't come to the raid at all. Knew I'd be helping the current theatre production but boss called in and said I had to show tomorrow night (wish I knew this sooner). Would call in saying I'm busy but my boss would skin me with a rusty spoon if I did that..... so..... Bummer. Maybe I can make the alt run instead or something..?

I can average about 80 words a minute and don't need to look at the keyboard when I type. It really didn't take that long to type up.

This doesn't happen very often, so I hope this won't be taken as me being unreliable. I'm sorry I didn't post this sooner when I could of but I didn't know what the statistics of this game would be and didn't realize zombies this game would be so.. fucking.. shitty... they need my veteran tips and support. My college - for this week - is playing 'Human VS Zombies'. Keep in mind.. my college only plays this game for one week once every semester. Also keep in mind we typically only get about 60 people playing this game but this game we got almost twice that at about 110 people playing. Furthermore.. this game only lasts 5 days... so keep in mind that usually with 60 people playing at least 20 are dead by the end of the first day. With twice as many humans we have just reached 20 dead halfway through the second day. The zombies this run are horrible, the OZ was horrible (so much that he was outted the first mission and there is a new OZ [OZ is the 'original zombie' who is disguised as a human until outed]), there are twice as many people playing, this game only comes once a semester and it is by far the highlight of my semesters and last term we didn't have a HvZ game because the mods didn't organize it well enough so it never happened. Every night there are missions that start at 8 PM and usually run an hour, maybe two. Needless to say, I'm skipping this mission tonight for you guys. But this game is like.... so great. There are five missions and it kills me I'm not going to tonights and I hope we down Seigecrafter so I won't feel quite as bad about tomorrow cause I know my class is crucial. As soon as the mission is over (assuming I killed humans that didn't dispute with me that I didn't) I will run back to my dorm and hop on to help if you need me. I have given my loyalty to you guys that I will consistently be on for raids at 7:00 PM since I joined this guild approx. half a year ago. But I have also given my loyalty to this game since one year ago when I joined my first game. I repeat again, it only comes once a semester for one week and I have ditched a mission to raid with you guys cause I really want this goblin piece of shit dead too. However, tomorrow I really want to go to the mission since there are only five and... yeah. My loyalty is to you guys and I'm sorry I didn't post this sooner but I didn't know how many people were playing or how bad the zombies were going to be. I will continue to show for raids on time and never miss a raid for no reason/without posting. Hope you guys understand and hope this doesn't damage my reliability too much because this is a very obscure and singular event that I would miss a raid for and post this late about it... next to like...... I got hit by a car or something.... or I'm cast in a production at our theatre but that won't happen for the rest of this semester. Maybe next semester... but I'd tell you guys waaaaay sooner than this. So yeah. Good luck guys. Hope we kill Seigecrafter tonight. But tomorrow I'm going to do my duty helping out these noob freshman zombies and lead the horde into battle. Will be on after as soon as I can. Sorry~!

Do you know a set date of when the 25m will go on hiatus? And how would the 10 people to push progression be chosen? Just seeing who's on and picking the best out?

Thank you for that Muln.. it was very informative and I hope the other hunters read it as well. I apologize for my original post as it turned slightly into a rant from frustrations during the raid night. I think given a bit of time and a couple of attempts the rest of the hunters can come to work better on the belts. Alternating some major CD's like Murder of Crows or Stampede could also help ensure that given all 4 hunters are still alive the target will go down. But really I'd just like us to stick with something either the 4 hunter strat or the 8 man strat. Could also consider a combination of the two. If there are other hunters that feel comfortable to do it and feel like they can succeed continuously (like me) doing the belts, it would mean one less person that spends time off the boss to run to the belts. I think the hunter strat could be successful given time.. either strat runs the risk of people dying on the belts so it does come down to the individuals a bit more than the strat. I didn't know my occasional sass had such an impact. If you miss it I can work on bringing more sass to raids. Was especially quiet this last raid week cause I sort of want to ease my roommate into.. "Yes, I will be talking and making noise until 11, maybe later. We share a room. Maybe if you stop watching funny videos and failing to hide that loud laugh of yours when I nap I'll be more quiet at night." ... I won't be more quiet though. It's my indirect vengeance to never getting a restful night to her stupid alarm going off every 3 hours.

Currently floating between two strategies. The first belt strat: 4 hunters. Using disengage to jump on the pipes and avoid the debuff when needed, burning down the target, and getting off with disengage. With glyph getting on the belts is easy at the worst and the most difficulty comes from dodging the lazers. So far, can be confirmed to work up to the 5th belt but haven't observed further due to mishaps. The second belt strat: Two groups of 4 people each. Running to the pipes and doing just as the hunters have done without fear of the debuff ever becoming a problem, but the lazers are a problem all the same that needs to be perfected. Works fine other than having the 8 people run back and forth kills a bit of time on boss DPS where 4 could consistently DPS the entire time and not have to worry about belts. The biggest difference between the two.. in one you rely on 4 people mastering a mechanic. In the other, you rely on 8 people mastering a mechanic. We haven't been doing Seigecrafter all that long. Impatience is making it more difficult to master anything or get to the point where a strat will start to work. Only about 5 attempts in the first strat was dropped for a new one. Only 2 attempts in there was debate to switch the belt kill order. Personally, I would like it if we pushed and kept doing the hunter only strategy. It's simpler and allows the other 4 people that would have been running back and forth to DPS the boss constantly and focus on other mechanics. A person isn't going to master a mechanic in a few attempts and as it was even said (I can't remember by whom) "we are still in practice mode". I think it's more beneficial to get the 4 people to practice and perfect the belts than to get 8 people to practice and perfect. There was improvement over the course of the attempts. I managed not to screw up once. Aerozia screwed up once or twice. Only one to fail the jump due to recount lag. Gromn had trouble with lazers at times. Tych had trouble with the lazers but was getting better with each attempt, the last attempt he would have lived if we had given him information beforehand. During each attempt we'd talk, discuss tips and such, and figure out the best strategy to working with the lazers and you could ask any of the hunters or Nerita to confirm this. We were actively working and improving as the attempts went on though it apparently wasn't fast enough for some others. Just like we aren't going to down Seigecrafter in 5 attempts, people ain't gonna perfect a pretty difficult mechanic like dodging the lazers in 5 attempts. And as a more personal gripe.. I would greatly appreciate it if every wipe due to the belts wasn't followed by some jab at the hunters for screwing up. To me, Aerozia, Gromn, Tych, or Flinz if he's on the belts. We know we fucked up. We are working to fix it. And honestly the gripes insinuate that we need to switch cause the hunters are failing in regards to getting up there. Jumping up is not a problem.. the lazers are a problem and they would be a problem for anyone it is not difficult towards a specific class of players it is difficult to anyone playing the game on the belts. If I trip on the sidewalk, I'm pretty damn aware I tripped. Just give me a chance and I won't trip again or if I do maybe I won't fall this time completely, maybe I'll catch myself. But I know I tripped so input is not needed if it is not followed by tips on how I can walk better and not trip. I'm sorry we didn't perfect the skill in 5 attempts.. it's not something that can be practiced in any other setting than raiding nights with the guild. We've barely seen Seigecrafter so I can also understand the impatience when you think something isn't working but if you don't give anything time to work then nothing will. The discussion is open if anyone else has any input. Really I'd just like us to pick a strategy and work with it for longer than 5 attempts cause that's around the time that just as people are starting to understand everything better it's changed. Not helpful.

The net here at my college should be fine for raiding. It's never given me a problem with WoW in the past (unless they schedule a blackout for some stupid reason) and I always keep my gaming laptop hooked up with the ethernet cable. Only possibility is that my other laptop (that I use for TeamSpeak) would lose internet since it's trapped on the dorm specific net, which is a bit unreliable at times.